Om-gnosis Episode 6: Interview with Saymon Zakaria, Ph.D.

Saymon Zakaria, PhD, writer, researcher, Director of the Bangla Academy, and Director of Vabnagar Foundation. He is internationally recognized for his ethnographic field-surveys that relate to Intangible Cultural Heritage (ICH) practices in Bangladesh.

He has delivered academic lectures on language, literature, and culture to the University of Chicago, the University of Pennsylvania, the University of California (Santa Barbara), the University of Washington, the Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, and the Sapientia-Hungarian University of Transylvania, IRCI (Japan), UNESCO ICH NGO FORUM symposium 2024 in Paraguay. Additionally, he has attended and conducted various workshops in France, Sri Lanka, Turkey, Kyrgyz Republic, Nepal, Philippines, Morocco and different regions of India. 

Major Publications: Pronomohi Bongomata: Indigenous Cultural Forms of Bangladesh (2017); City of Mirrors: Songs of Lālan Sā̃i, (Co-editor), Oxford University Press (2017); Traditional Music Instruments of Bangladesh (2018.)

He is also an editor of Bhābanagara: International Journal of Bengal Studies.

Transcript, translated from Bangla by Keith Cantú with assistance from Nasrin Akter

[KEITH]

Welcome to the sixth episode of Om-gnosis: The Occult South Asia Podcast.

Today we have a really special treat for you. We're joined by Doctor Saymon Zakaria, who is a writer, researcher and deputy director of the Bangla Academy. He's also the chairperson, and director of the Bhabnagar Foundation.

He's internationally recognized for his ethnographic field surveys, and he's delivered academic lectures on language, literature and culture to the University of Chicago, the University of Pennsylvania, UC Santa Barbara, where I had the chance to host Simon once. University of Washington, where we first met, I believe, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies and many other places, and he recently came back from the UNESCO ICH NGO Forum Symposium in Paraguay and has attended and conducted various workshops in France, Sri Lanka, Turkey, the Kyrgyz Republic, Nepal, Philippines, Morocco and different regions of India.

Many of, Saymon's publications–you're very prolific, have written a lot of books and articles–Some of the most featured among these are Pronomohi Bongomata: Indigenous Cultural Forms of Bangladesh, also co-editor of City of Mirrors: Songs of Lalan Sai, which we had the opportunity to work on together. Traditional Music Instruments of Bangladesh, which is a wonderful book as well. He's the editor of Bhābanagara, the International Journal of Bengal Studies, and received the Bangla Academy Literary Award in 2019.

So, at this time we'll speak in Bangla to make it a little more natural for the interview. But it's a great pleasure to welcome Saymon. So follow along, you know, with the captions on the screen, if you can't understand Bangla. Okay. Thik ache? Welcome. Welcome, Saymon.

[SAYMON]

Thank you as well so much for inviting me and for the special work that you do on all of South Asia, its religion, philosophy, culture, hidden practices, it all interests me very much.

And also with you ‘City of mirrors: Songs of Lalan Sai', one of Doctor Carol Solomon’s milestone works—we edited it and were able to publish it with Oxford University Press in New York. It was a joyful and proud occasion. And we had a duty and obligation to bring out Carol’s work. Thanks so much for joining me.

[KEITH]

You’re welcome. We met 10, no 15 years ago no? Around that, but your entire history before that, and how you got interested in all these things like folk culture, then Bengali traditions, actually there’s a lot that I don’t have any idea about. So at first can you talk a little about your background? Where’s your home? I know but probably the viewers won’t know. You have a PhD – what subject is it in? How did your interest in Bangladesh’s popular/folk culture first arise?

[SAYMON]

Actually, I was born in one of Bangladesh’s very important cultural region, Kushtia zila, Kumarkhali thana (zone), Jungli village. This area is special in our country for for its different kinds of contemplative practices, hidden practices, Fakiri practices, Bāul practices, and for Vaishnava practices it's really important. I was born in this area. And after I was born ... my mother had a home — I was born where my mom was born. 

Then there's my father's home, in a nearby administrative region, Jhenaidah Zila, Shailkupa Thana, Basantapur Village. This Basantapur village is also very important for our country's contemplative practices, and especially Nath practices, bodily practices, Sufi practices, and Baul practices a very important center. Because this Jangli village and the school where I studied, a high school, Harinarayanpur High School. Harinarayanpur is a very important place, and Fakir Lalon Sai came there a lot along with his partner in pair-practices and many of his students. The village next to Basantapur is Chorchoria. This is also an important center for practices where you visited with me and where it is said that Lalon had two ashrams (hermitages).

In this Chorchoria village was Lalon Sai's most settled student Shaher Sai's hermitage. It can be heard at this ashram that he donated everything to Lalon, almost 100 bighas (about 33 acres), and there's still property there. And many still engage in the Fakiri ways there. So I was born here and nearby my village was Sri Kanto Khepa, someone who basically engaged in the practices of the Nāth-panthīs. Sri Kanto also has many songs. About 3-400 songs have been published and there are many more apart from that. Nearby in the neighboring village was Arman Shah, also called Naked Shah, and this Naked Shah's hermitage. About all these things, these extraordinary things, there are a lot of rumors, and a lot of rumors related to the practices. There is your average person, and there is an adept (sādhaka). There are a lot of stories about how conflict started between these two and how they were able to come together. Because I was born around these places, it's my birthright/inheritance to have been able to reside amid these cultures and traditions, and grow up around them.

Then when I studied at primary school, high school then...each family in our area has a culture, like singing, dancing, drama and acting, and especially in Bangladesh's region of Jhenaidah and Kushtia whenever there's a wedding or a Muslim circumcision festival at these kinds of festivals, or annual festivals, like annual school festivals, at all these events there's a kind of occasion. It's called "Shongshaja" (dressing up together). At these dress-ups, especially with my mother, as far as I remember, since I dressed up a lot with my mom, at wedding parties, I would dance with my mom, and at these dress-ups, I'm a human being but maybe I would act like, dress like a monkey. Or, although I'm biologically male, many times in my childhood I would dress up like a woman wearing a saree, gold jewelry and ornaments, like that, and going to different homes during weddings we'd have a lot of joy and give people a lot of joy. And in exchange for this joy, since during the dress-ups we're going close to another person, then these people would give us gifts, money or other different kinds of gifts. They'd give gifts upon receiving joy (from us). And then giving them our respects, we would enter another home. There was kind of a social, a cultural climate for this. 

Like you went to my village with me, Basantapur. There in front of my home is a big school field. From my childhood we saw in that field that there would be folk theatre performances (yātra pālā), for a whole month. When winter came, school would close for a whole month. And at that time, on the school field all of Bangladesh's famous theater groups would come. On many stages for a whole month there would be actors, actresses and artists, musical instrumentalists, theater administrators/directors — they would all stay there. And even though they came from afar and other places, they would form a relationship with the people of the village. And on that school field, there would be a big festival (mela). As in, there would be sweet shops, different kinds of shops, gift and souvenir shops. As babies and toddlers in our mother's lap we would watch the folk theater performances.

Aside from this, there was another important type of acting in this area — these were the Songs of Gazi. Gazi Kalu, Champabati — it was a drama of the medieval Muslim settler-saints (pirs). In these dramas were love, politics, devotion, trust, and all of these mixed together are found circulating in Gazi Kalu Champabati dramas. And in our area Jhenaidah Zila's Kotchadpur District, Gazi Kalu has a burial site / tumulus (samadhi). And there basically it's also a lot of fun since that's where the Hijra, transgender people, have a gathering every year the last week of Falgun month (February/March) at Gazi Kalu Champabati's ashram / hermitage. Here we see that in this area women, men, and Hijra, that is, other genders, among these people there was a relationship. Everyone respected each other. Everyone had a place of respect and honor. 

Aside from that, if we say about my background that just like we saw the folk theater, and listened to Gazi Kalu songs, there were the games of the snake-charmers (or snake-handlers). In that area in each village there's a snake-charmer. These snake-charmers hold the snake and make it play. To make the snake play means that they playfully charm the snakes. They also perform treatments. If the snake bit anyone, then at that time there was no way to be taken to a hospital. In the villages there still isn't any way. At that time the magical healing that the snake-charmers did is also linked to hidden/occult practice. They would take care of people with magical healing and herbal knowledge. There are so many things that are linked to the snake-charmers, such as the continuity of the contemplative practices from ancient times, the continuity of body-centered practices. They know about these relationships. In their language they also often hint at different kinds of instruction that they give to people. There are a lot of topics around this, such as when I went to get married. Exactly one day before my marriage was fixed a snake-charmer came to our home. After arriving he sang a song. An extraordinary song. It was about the way that in our Baul practice there is a matter of retaining the virility, retaining the seed, as a way of preserving the body—He sang and let us hear this type of song. Upon singing this song he didn't say anything — he just sang the song. However, as a groom to a wedding party, the song created different kinds of reactions in me as in, what was he wanting to make understood in this song? And they teach people in this kind of way. Just as in getting married we will enter into sexual intimacy, in that area what my role will be, the ordinary village adepts (sadhus) give us an understanding of this. And it's in a language full of hints. They don't speak clearly in the way that we who have formal education often want to speak clearly. They speak clearly but it stays as metaphoric language. We saw this in the village, and learned this from the village. This is my story of growing up, and also in this how my interest in folk culture arose.

Then as you said in the intro, Pronomohi Bongomata was one of my celebrated works. When I passed intermediate exams and enrolled in my first year of honors (college) from that time a strong desire arose in me to be a creative writer — I wrote poems. Then I composed dramas / plays. I also wrote songs. From writing plays I understood that the kind of stages for the plays that I had seen, such as my experience seeing the Gazi plays in the village, or the Ramayana songs I had seen in the village, or the folk theater songs I had seen in the village. There is a big difference between the kinds of stages they use for plays in the cities versus village plays. I essentially wanted the actors in my plays to perform their acting like in village stages and in dramas like Gazi songs. It was essentially from this desire that I began traveling to villages and rural areas. I began seeing all the different kinds of folk theater and I began making notes, and recording them. I took photos of them.

After this a big Bangla-language newspaper in our country, Prothom Alo ("First Light")...

[KEITH]

Yes it's very famous.

[SAYMON]

I started by submitting two of my articles based on my experience to this newspaper. The first—certainly perhaps you are acquainted with him—was on Cheuriya village's Daut Pagla. He would dress up entirely in a gamcha (colorful patterned cloth) with a gamcha around his neck. He would always be dressed in gamcha, twelve months out of the year. He would wear one below (for his waist) and one above (as a shirt)—he wouldn't wear anything else. In the winter time, summer, rainy season — all the time. I had an interview with Daut Pagla around 1991 or 1992. After returning I submitted it to Prothom Alo.But Prothom Alo had never received this kind of writing before. At that time at Prothom Alo they were a bit conflicted about publishing. They were like: “Where and how should we publish this?” 

But the writing was important because in that writing there was some poor Fakir or Baul whose desire is to travel to Ajmer, but he didn’t have any money. He will go to Ajmer Sharif, but has no money. But many sadhus (spiritual practitioners) go to Ajmer from Lalon Sai’s shrine using their money. But this fakir has no money, so how can he go? But inside of him a kind of experience arose, a dream came, a sign came that you should give devotion (bhakti) to your mother first. You should drink the water that you used to wash your mother’s feet. If you don’t want to drink the water after washing the feet the first time, then wash them once more. After washing them a second time if you still don’t want to drink the water, then wash them a third time. In this way keep washing as many times as you’d like, and then drink it.And after expressing this virtue of devotion, you’ll be able to go to Ajmer Sharif. And Daut Pagla told me that he did just that. And after doing that something arose with him, a kind of feeling, that someone in front of him is calling him, and that by following this call again and again finally he arrived in Ajmer.

I first submitted this story of a journey to Prothom Alo. It was published in Prothom Alo after six months. Then I submitted another story on the songs of Ramayana as performed in the environs of Kushtia, [entitled] “This is kirtan, not a song.” Essentially these Ramayana songs in Kushtia are very popular and Tritibashi Ramayan is a story with many episodes. At many homes in Kushtia, especially at Hindu funeral rites when someone dies, the singers act it out and sing it. And when I saw this small concert, it was only a Vaishnava singer singing, Ram Pada Mantu Gosai was his name, but I was so surprised at this small concert that he would always include all religions in his small concert on the Ramayana. 

As in, "this kirtan is not a song, it’s for the auspicious benefit of all human beings." He didn’t say that it’s only for the auspicious benefit of Vaishnavas (worshippers of Vishnu). He didn’t say that it’s only for the auspicious benefit of Hindus. He would say that the kirtan is for the auspicious benefit of human beings. And he would make the comparison that just as Muslims have some ages/eras (yugas), Hindus also have some ages/eras, and that just as Muslims have several prophets (nabi), Hindus have several avatars (avatārs). And that Hindus have many sacred books or holy texts just as Muslims have holy texts. And he would show in making the comparison that within all the religions of the world there is a harmony, a similarity. So in this context we sing songs for the auspicious benefit of all human beings. I included this second writing in Pronomohi Bongomata. That also took a few months to publish. Then I wrote another piece about "Manasa Mangala." It’s about the wish-fulling Manasa Goddess in the environs of Rajshahi. It was that kind of writing.

Publishing this article had a positive effect on Prothom Alo and there was some communication between Prothom Alo and me about whether I could compose a more formal piece of writing with the name Pronomohi Bongomata, and this writing was published twice a month in Prothom Alo. It was about my travels in villages and the cultural practices I observed, traditional culture, especially “ritualistic performance.” All the cultural performances like songs, dances, acting, dramatic rituals and the epics — I would write about all of these. After writing these it became very popular and alongside [Prothom Alo] we have another important newspaper Daily Star — an English paper. From Prothom Alo the writing was formally translated and published in Daily Star. This is essentially the beginning of my own journey into the world of culture and into the area of practices.From this time onward I have been devoted to this work and deeply connected to it.

You asked one more question, the question was about my PhD. The PhD that I did was on the topic of Bangladesh's traditional dramatic customs and theater. But before the PhD I had also done earlier research on the characters of Rama and Sita in folk performances of the Ramayana. This was carried out at Jahangirnagar University's Department of Theater and Theater Studies. As I said before about the folk performances of the Ramayana—as an Islamic country, we see that Muslims are dominant. Yet an immortal treasury of this country are the Ramayana songs. Hindus and Muslims alike have written theater plays about them. Vaishnavas have written them, women have written them. In this way there are countless Ramayana stories and these are different from Valmiki's Ramayana, different from Tritibashi's Ramayana. Here there's a new Ramayana, with new kinds of character formation. This was the research for my MPhil. While I was there I saw the characteristics of the Muslim forms of Ramayana, what inclinations are there, and what changes in those Ramayanas written by women.I gave explanations for these.

After that I did my PhD at Dhaka University's Department of Bangla. As I said before — Bangladesh's traditional theater and language rules. We have a circulating idea about the language rules that many researchers have said before, like Sukumar Sen, Ashutosh Bhattacharya, great scholars about the culture and literature of the language of Bangladesh, the Bengali language. They all have said that the language of folk theater and colloquial/regional language mean the same thing. But we can't really say that. When I traveled from village to village then I carefully noticed that in our traditional theater plays, what I've been calling folk plays, or traditional plays, the language rules of the play depend on the essence of the topic. that is, when people in the village perform stories from epics,  the folk theater performers, or artist actors and actresses, I saw that in these plays they have a tendency to use classical language, pure Bengali, with Sanskrit verses or there's the use of Arabic and Farsi. If it's a story that depends on Ramayana, there will be pure Bengali and in that will be many, many Sanskrit verses. If it's a story from Mahabharata then will be that way as well. Also if we see that Gazi Songs are happening, here also many Sanskrit verses enter, alongside many Persian-Arabic words enter. When the Prophet Muhammad's story is described they almost always speak in pure Bengali. But there are portions of these plays that are centered on the life of people in the villages. These characters all speak in colloquial/regional Bengali. 

When the story depends upon folk/popular living—I have spoken about "Shong"— in the Tangail region there's a famous mode of acting. They call it "Shong Jatra" or "Shong Pala (folk theater)." These stories are basically about life in the village. Such as, a child comes of age and, just as Bangladesh has a culture of this, when a son grows up he can't tell his father about his intent to marry. A conflict arises within him. He then goes again and again to his father, saying, "Ok, I'll talk to my father about you." But he isn't able to talk about it. Later... I'm talking about this Shong Jatra Pala from the environs of Tangail still ... these are all completely in the language of regional/folk dialects. Why are they in this regional/folk dialect? One can understand it from what I'm saying. We see that when the father says. "I understand what your heart is saying—you want to get married," We then see that the father had gone to look for a girl for his son. But upon looking for a girl [for his son], he finds one that he [the father] himself likes, marries her and returns. It's really funny. The son then thinks when his father brings the girl that his father had brought her for him. The father then says, no this is your mother. I married her — show her some respect.  Then what the son does, the son then goes away to search for the mother of the girl that his father had married. He finds her mother, and discovers that she is a widow. This time the son marries this mother and returns home. What transpired in this story? After the father tells the son to pay his respects to his new mother, the son finds and brings back his father's mother-in-law as his own wife. People in the village play around with these sorts of stories. So that people will not marry many times, and that people will stay cautious. If we consider Rajshahi's Gambhir Alkap [a kind of folk theater], these are all in regional/dialect language, and the stories are about familial and social life. There's no relation to the heroes in Dhrupad. Nor do we find any connections to the epics. This is a partial answer to your first question.

[KEITH]

No, you gave a great answer to the question. There's a lot of truth and depth in the things you say. I can experience in what you say, in your universe and where you were born, and now I can grasp a little idea of it. So that's great. 

About your Bangla Academy work and work on the Bhabanagara (Journal), could you say something about that? It's more recent. Since the people who will listen maybe will not know much about Bangladesh. Certainly people could be listening from Bangladesh. But most people perhaps won't know. Does Bangladesh have any points of harmony in its cultural or traditional relationship with Bengalis in West Bengal, India or Kolkata? People may know more about India as compared to Bangladesh. But there may be a lot of points of similarity.

[SAYMON]

Really wonderful question. Actually the history of our Bangla Academy is especially for understanding Bangladesh. If we want to first become familiar with these points for understanding Bangladesh, we have to understand the Bangla language upon which Bangladesh depends. Even if there are many other languages in Bangladesh.Now I will speak a little about the background of how the Bangla Academy came to be. You certainly know, as many know, that in the year 1947 the Indian subcontinent was divided into three parts. One was India (Bharat), one was East Pakistan, and one West Pakistan. Even though Pakistan could be divided into two parts, they were seen as a single state. But when Pakistan, that is, united Pakistan, both West Pakistan and East Pakistan, the latter of which is now Bangladesh. West Pakistan’s language was Urdu. Since Pakistan wanted to expand the official language of Urdu, Bangladesh, as East Pakistan, would have to speak Urdu. Their language, Urdu. When West Pakistan informed East Pakistan (Bangladesh) that they would have to switch their language, and claimed this and made an effort to change it, then Bangladeshi Bengalis created a movementand appealed to Parliament about this, and protested on the streets. So we see that from 1947 to 1952 a movement for our mother language. UNESCO determined that February 21 is called International Mother Language Day. But on the day of February 21, specifically in Dhaka, some people who loved their mother language and were activists (for language rights) became martyrs due to West Pakistan’s attack, and they were killed. Because of them, Bengalis became more united and fierce. Specifically, on February 21 in 1952 when Barkot, Salam, Rofiq, and Jobbar are martyred as part of the language movement then Bengalis become all united and everyone in Bangladesh, what was then East Pakistan, became united in their interest. And then specifically Bengalis strongly claimed that in order to preserve our mother language, we will establish an institute for the practice, literature, and dissemination of our mother language, that is, the Bangla language. The name of this institute will be the Bangla Academy. This was decladed in 1952. And the Bangla Academy was established by the government on December 3, 1955. And from that time Bangla Academy’s basic mission was literature, culture, practice, and dissemination.

At that time priority was given to two departments: One was research on literature and another was translation. The literature and translation departments are very important since there are books in many different languages of the world. But when the Bangla language officially became our mother tongue, it became necessary to have Bangla-language books. It became necessary to translate textbooks and educational materials into Bangla, and books on literature and world literature. From the very start of the Bangla Academy, the Bangla Academy basically prioritized literature and translation and distinguished between these in their work on a regular basis from 1955. 

Then another important department became joined to the Bangla Academy: Folklore. Following this, from 1961 onwards the folklore department has collected, from many different parts and regions of Bangladesh, folk music, folk dance, folk theater, folk magic (Tantra Mantra), folk sayings, and timeless lore. This was on pen and paper, handwriting – there was no recording system. There was no audio or visual device. From 1961 to 1981 they made their own collected records on pen and paper from all around Bangladesh. They would go to different areas, hear what people had to say directly, write down their reports, and submit them to the Bangla Academy. Bangla Academy has a folklore archive where these are preserved, especially the handwritten records. 

Alongside this, the Bangla Academy started to work on collecting medieval Bengali handwritten manuscripts, and on their culture. They collect manuscripts, and these are preserved at the manuscript archives of the Bangla Academy. There are many manuscripts. We can see that the first Bangla Academy publication was on Layla and Majnun, Dawlat Wazir Bahram Khan's Layla and Majnun. This is a very famously named literature (kāvya) from the medieval period. Ahmad Sharif edited this work and it was published by the Bangla Academy between 1955 and 1957. 

In future years, for the benefit of the Bengali people, the Bangla Academy began to introduce standard dictionaries. These were English to Bengali, Bengali to English, Arabic and Farsi dictionaries, Urdu, Bangla to Bangla. They did lots of this standardization work on dictionaries. Now we see that the Bangla Academy is divided into a few departments. One deals with the editing and preservation of old Bengali manuscripts from the medieval period, another is the preservation and research of folklore, another is research on literature, and another on translation and dictionaries. These are the main work of the Bangla Academy. This is the work that the Bangla Academy carries out. Many books by foreigners have also been published by the Bangla Academy from here, like Hanne-Ruth Thompson's book. Aside from this, William Radice's book was published, and among American researchers, Henry Klassen's book. There have been a lot of books like that released by the Bangla Academy. Most of these were published in English, but now we're thinking that we'll also start to publish foreigners' books that they've written in Bengali. This work is at present being systematically done.

I'll speak now about the Bhabnagar Foundation. The Bhabnagar Foundation — essentially our country has between two to three thousands years of ancient history, this includes our history of contemplative practices (sādhana), and the history of traditional literatures, but this history has not been properly preserved, interest in the practices has not been properly aroused, and the means to circulate them has not been properly applied. And about the people who do these contemplative practices, none of our institutes have considered them together, or familiarized them to the outside world, or even compiled them together on a list. It was to this end that the Bhabnagar Foundation was instituted in 2010 and obtained government registration in 2011. And last year it became recognized as an accredited NGO with UNESCO. 

The main work that the Bhabnagar Foundation does, it's main philosophy, is to unite creative knowledge and traditional knowledge. Like when you very deeply immersed yourself and stayed among Bauls and Fakirs in Bangladesh, you saw that the educated people in our country really neglect our traditional culture,  or think it's worthless. And the people who practice our folk cultures, mainly  those who engage in Baul Fakir practice, in the same way they regard the educated people as ignorant, neglect them, or think they're worthless. The two sides don't want to embrace the other. But since I am directly joined to Baul Fakirs, and initiated into the Fakiri path, I have seen that there is a unity between them. Those of us who do academic research, we are always doing research about folk culture. Yet the educated people have an opinion about the very thing they should value, namely that the people who engage in folk practices don't know or understand anything. But Fakir Lalon Sai is counted among these [folk practitioners], and he is  a crown jewel of knowledge, an avatar of gnosis. If we speak of Ali Roza, he's an avatar of knowledge, Hassan Roja, he's an avatar of knowledge. There's many of them—they are who we're talking about. The Bhabnagar Foundation essentially wants to create unity among both of these sides. We hold on to those who are academic scholars, and alongside them, we work together with Baul Fakirs and Sadhus who have the creative knowledge. So that the conflict that exists between them can be dissolved, so that both can march together.

Another topic that we at the Bhabnagar Foundation work on is the fact that there are so many new fields of studies emerging in the world, like ethnomusicology, cultural geography, anthropology, all these fields of study are little-known by our common people, and even by our academics. To this end we are wanting to introduce and make these new fields of study known to scholars alongside our country's contemplative practititioners. We translate these, like we translated Interpreting Folklore by Alan Dundes, which was translated by the Bhabnagar Foundation. Alongside this we translated Timothy Rice's Ethnomusicology: A Very Short Introduction. Alongside this, you were also involved in the Ethnomusicology International Conference that we organized. Through the efforts of the Bhabnagar Foundation, we put on four to five symposia on the academic methods of scholars from many countries at the EMK Center and we've been engaging in this work since 2013. We've been able to clearly define the Bhabnagar Foundation's work. 

Alongside this is another of the Bhabnagar Foundation's work, namely the journal that we publish. Its name is Bhabanagara. Its main work is with scholars like you who are not Bengali, those non-Bengalis who are affiliated with various universities around the world through research or lecturing, those who research Bangla culture and language but who have never written an article in Bangla or who never thought writing one would be important. But we as Bengalis don't know about them. For this reason the Bhabnagar Foundation's International Journal for Bengal Studies publishes work by non-Bengalis in the Bangla language. We publish articles by them alongside interviews of them and we publish translations of their work and also publish their translations of our writing. And the Bhabnagar Foundation's biggest achievement is,  as you know, that we have been able to revive the Old Bengali traditional songs of the Charyapada. These songs arose in [what is today] Bangladesh, and were written between 650 to 1200 CE according to scholars, but the Bangladeshi people did not know about these songs nor sing them. People who studied at university knew that there was an ancient culture of Old Bengali traditional songs called the Charyapada, or that there were some poems, but we didn't have them among us in any living form. The Bhabnagar Foundation has revived these songs among the gatherings of Bauls, Fakirs, and Sadhus, and as you know this revival is not only in Bangladesh but they have been well-received around the entire world. And now scholars from around the world perform these Charyapada songs alongside Baul Fakirs using Baul melodies. I think this is a big achievement of our Bhabnagar Foundation.

[KEITH]

A really big achievement. And it's really important since there are so many perspectives. As in, the way that we research such things in this country, the majority of the time they are studied as philosophy, or anthropology, or religious studies, and from what you're saying I can see that folklore is such an important medium through which we can understand a country's history, tradition, and culture...

[SAYMON]

You had another question that I forgot to answer, which was the similarity between West Bengal and Bangladesh...

[KEITH]

The answer already arose in your answer about the development of the Bangla Academy, and all that history, but feel free to say something more about that if you want. 

[SAYMON]

Actually your question was about whether similarity or difference exists between the traditions and cultures of West Bengal, India and Bangladesh.It's very important because the portion of land that is Bangladesh has been partitioned. Essentially at the time when the British separated it, India was separated into different countries. From this time the problem arose that there's a big Bangla language-speaking area, West Bengal, what became West Bengal, India, while Bangladesh became joined to East Pakistan for religious reasons, not because of language. However, Bangladesh is similar to West Bengal because...the first similarity is due to language. The two peoples speak Bangla/Bengali. And the two cultures are similar since we can see even more deeply that many, many people have gone to West Bengal from Bangadesh. And they went at different times: Some went after 1947, some went after 1971, and they are still going. But when someone goes, it's not only the person who goes, along with them their culture also goes. Many things go, their artistry/practice of art... We've seen that...there are many things. If we speak of our country's folkore, many groups of our artists from Oshtok (aṣṭak) Song troupes went over to West Bengal. There in the villages and village outskirts they have given many Oshtok Song performances. And I've had the fortunate of being able to see many of these small Oshtok Song concerts in West Bengal. In Nadia in West Bengal, Sukanta Sarani club, there every year on the 10th of Baishak month (April/May) they put on a Oshtok dance and theater performance. I went to this performance once and I saw that all the singers, they who are acting in these Oshtok songs, almost all of them have roots in Bangladesh. They talked about Bangladesh, about what village they came from, and after returning to Bangladesh I went to these villages that they spoke of. But upon going there I was sad to find out that these Oshtok songs that are now happening in West Bengal are no longer happening in Bangladesh. That means that many things from Bangladesh are being practiced beautifully in West Bengal. That means that West Bengal is representing Bangladeshi people. 

Another subject that I can talk about is religion—Bangladesh is the birthplace of a few religions and philosophies like our Matua religion. Matua has a sect, the religion of which originates in Gopalganj district's Orakandi village. And from this Orakandi village this religion has spread certainly to West Bengal and it's found in other places in India and also in India's Andaman Islands. Bangladesh's devotional practices have spread and prospered. From this we can see that many things from Bangladesh have expanded in West Bengal. This practice is happening both in Bangladesh and over there, so in that sense there's certainly similarity, as in the path of our Baul practices, we see a difference that since Bangladesh is majority-Muslim by population, so we see that among the practices of the Bauls of Bangladesh there's a lot of similarity and relationships with Fakiri practice. And the style of singing is also a little different. 

Also the Bauls of West Bengal are together with the Vaishnava path, since there is Nadia and the place of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and so there they have a lot of influence from Vaishnavas, and this is expressed a lot in their spiritual practices. And if we also look at the topic of languages between Bangladesh and West Bengal, even if we both speak the Bangla language, you know that there are slight differences between Bangladesh and West Bengal. There are also differences in the habits around food — both West Bengal and Bangladesh both have their own habits around food. The differences are very subtle. The reason for this is West Bengal's geographical situation and the fact that West Bengal has its own ancient cultural traditions.  And Bangladesh has it's own separate ancient cultural tradition based on the division of land. People from both of the countries were invited to each other's cultural traditions. That's why we can see some distinctions. 

[KEITH]

Yes, like when one eats Hilsa fish will it be cooked in mustard oil or not? 

[SAYMON]

Yes if you eat Hilsa in Bangladesh you have to have mustard oil, you'll eat mustard Hilsa. Hilsa from the Padma River and Hilsa from the Ganges River are different though. People from West Bengal long to eat Hilsa from the Padma River. 

[KEITH]

Oh no, now we've gotten into a political topic! 

[SAYMON]

*laughs* But Bangladesh people can't eat Hilsa fish from the Ganges....

[KEITH]

So, you said a few words that are important for this conversation, like “Baul”  and “Fakir,”  these kinds of words. We edited and worked on the book City of Mirrors: Songs of Lālan Sāi together as you said a bit before, after giving me the invitation. Thanks very much for this opportunity. In your opinion what is "Baul" and "Fakir" and within Bangladesh, Lalon — you brought up the name Lalon a few times — how important is Lalon? 

[SAYMON]

The subject of Baul, about this subject among our researchers Bengali, non-Bengali, internationally, all the research that has been done,in this research I think there are some gaps. As in, historically it was always said of Baul tradition that it arose from the Vaishnava period, that is, from the time of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, that either right after him or later the Baul tradition was born. This is what is usually being said. But upon reviving the Charyapada songs, we see the history of the Baul tradition is more ancient.

This is because, as Ahmad Sharif has said, there are two references in the Charyapada—Charyapada number 17 and number 35—two words are there, one is bājil and another is bājul. Ahmad Sharif said that bājil and bājul are the source of the word Baul (bāul), and we've also seen in the context of spiritual practices (sādhana) that the system of practices among Bauls—the people whom we now recognize as Bauls, the people who practice body-centered practices (dehakendrik sādhana), the play of inhaling and exhaling air, or the play of ida, pingala, and sushumna (left, right, central channels), all these topics about what is going on inside the body—we can see all these things happening clearly in the Charyapadas. 

When the Baul Fakirs sing the Charyapadas among us, and those among them begin explaining the meaning of the songs, then they will explain them, saying that they are completely similar to Baul esoteric practices. This happens in such a way that it makes us want to rewrite or revise the history in a new way. Because the history of Baul practices has become fragmented, if we don't give proper importance to the ancient aspects, then it won't be possible to keep this history alive. So if I may quote Charyapada number 17, it says there: 

nācanti bājila gānti debī / buddha nāṭaka bisamā hoi // 

"The Holder of the Vajra dances, the Goddess sings — difficult is the Dance of the Buddha"

This "nācanti bājil" (they who are bājil dance)

It is said that [bājil here means] the holders of the vajra (bajradhara) or the clan of the vajra (vajrakula), that the Vajracharyas dance, or bājil dance, and the Goddess (Devī) sings, that is, that a woman sings. The acting/dancing of the awakened one (Buddha) is finishing in an uneven, a difficult way. 

[KEITH]

Oh, you are talking about what most people in this country would understand as "vajra" (diamond, thunderbolt) in Sanskrit.

[SAYMON]

Yes, vajra, vajra, Vajrayānī (one on the path of Vajra)

Next I'll quote from number 35 of the Charyapada, which goes, as Bhāde Pā wrote in the thirty-fifth pada: 

bājule dila moha-kakhu bhaṇiā / maï ahārila gaaṇata paṇiā̃

"Bājula has explained illusion / I drank water in the Sky."

This bājula, bājula means the Baul has explained illusion. Within these two words bājila and bājula we are finding an intimate harmony and we're finding in terms of the spiritual practices (sādhana) that the way that Bauls speak in language filled with hints and speak in a way that depends on the body (deha), and speak of a steadfast essence of reality (bastu) just as the Charyapadas speak of a steadfast essence of reality. In the Charyapada these two words, as you have said: Vajrayānī ... We know that that the Charyapada were essentially the songs of the esoteric practitioners (sādhaka) of Vajrayāna. These Vajra[yāna] practitioners basically adopted the tradition of Bāul practice. And my opinion is that since we find the original form of the words for Bāul in the Charyapada that the Bāul tradition is even older than the Caryapadas. 

But it was necessary to research more expansively and thoroughly into this — and we didn't do this, but now the opportunity to do this has come. Through different ways like if we analyze statues/idols, or if we look at the Charyapada more deeply from the perspective of practice (sādhana) along with the present forms of Bāul practice in terms of the similarities and differences— if we are able to explain and analyze these, then we are able to establish Bāul practice as more ancient, even back to 2,000 years ago. 

And now for the second part of your question, about "Fakir." The Fakiri way in Bangladesh, actually, Baul and Fakir, these two are usually spoken of in such a way that one often cannot determine a distinction between them. Because Lalon Sai identified himself as a Fakir. Fakir Lalon Sai — we know it this way. But scholars identify Lalon as a Baul even though the word bāul is not used anywhere in his songs. As for what is the Fakiri way, we say about Fakir that, as far as the current meaning in Bangladesh goes, the word Fakir is basically used to describe Sufi practitioners (sādhaka). [The letters] Fe Kaph Re, those who have these within them are called Fakirs. 

Among the way of the Fakirs are found Sufi practices such as the deep meaning of Allahor ("of Allah"), and the deep meaning of Muhammad and the deep meaning of Fatima and the deep meaning of Pakpanjatan "Five Holy People." Fakirs bring these holy figures together in their esoteric practice (sādhana). But in a symbolic way they also together with Kālā, that is Krishna, or the esoteric practice of our Kanhapa — they harmonize in a hidden way with these too. This they do not express openly. Or actually there's nothing to express, because not everything can be expressed. Some things in the mode of our esoteric practice (sādhana) are practiced secretly and are expressed through the language of gestures. Because if the gestures are there, there is flavor (rasa), and this kind of flavorful mood (bhāva) affects one more deeply. 

In Bangladesh it is generally thought in this context that essentially those who are connected to Sufi esoteric practice (sādhana) are called Fakirs. But there is one kind of Sufi esoteric practice among the Maizbhandaris, that is also Sufi practice, And here there are also different kinds of paths (Arabic ṭarīqa), like Chishti and Nizami—there are so many kinds of paths, and even beyond these the Sufis have fashioned many kinds of contemplative worshippers (upāsaka). These paths—they can also be called Fakirs. But many times they are not identifying themselves as Fakir. But there's any easy answer, if we read the text "Ocean of Gnosis" (Jñāna Sāgar) by the medieval poet Ali Raza, he gave there a definition of "Fakir," or acquaints us with "Fakir."  Following him, in Bangladesh all the different kinds of esoteric practices are in harmony with each other. In harmonizing these practices, they [the practitioners] themselves brought them together as they joined together, and on account of these collective esoteric practices Fakir and Bāul cannot be separated.

And so, for this reason Baul and Fakir are spoken of as separated by a hyphen (Bāul-Fakir), meaning that whoever is a Baul is a Fakir and whoever is a Fakir is a Baul. However, among the two there is a subtle distinction. Because we see that Bauls are performing the esoteric practice of the Four Moons, and we see the way that Sufi practitioners are ascertaining how to integrate this into their practice, and perhaps they are also doing this in secret. As in the many books that we have read about the practice (sādhana) of Lalon Fakir In these we have seen that there is a lot of similarity among these hidden practices (carcā) as well with Fakiri and Sufi practice. 

However, if we read deeply into Lalon Sai's songs, we see that he was not only connected to Fakiri practice. He has many Vaishnava padavali, a lot of songs related to Nath tradition of body-practice (deha-sādhana), so he then brought together a lot of views. Therefore just as Lalon was careful to not identify as Baul, he also didn't clearly identify as Fakir. The practice of the person of the heart (maner mānuṣ) is what he wanted to identify In this context he held onto an extraordinary expression, that a person is attracted to their esoteric practice (sādhana) by an inner mystery. Because of this Fakirs are not in conflict but will find harmonious ways to engage in their practice. They will seek unity in the engagement of their practice. For this reason one cannot have the company of sadhus (sādhu-saṅga) without people from the five rooms. If you now try to distinguish between these rooms, then you'll see that in each room there are some differences in practice. However, the idea of the five rooms is symbolic, since actually Lalon said that many more rooms are in harmony, or that's what I think at least. 

[KEITH]

What was he trying to make understood by these different kinds of "rooms" (ghar) — was it different philosophies, groups, or kinds of sadhus and fakirs? If you could make this a bit more clear...

[SAYMON]

Here "room" among the followers of Lalon (Lālan-panthī) means Lalon Sai had a family. And so his students are in the room of Lalon, or on the path of Lalon. And then there's the room of Satima, meaning they who practice according to way of Satima. Then there's the room of Delbar Shah, as in, the people who take Delbar Shah as their guru or have practice their philosophy in this way. This means that when there's a different teacher (guru), there are different rooms. Their practices are a bit different, but when they sit in the company of sadhus (sādhu-saṅga), they all conduct themselves as one. They all take food in the same way, they all sit in the same way, and they all perform devotions (bhakti) in the same way. They all introduce their music in the same way. This means that when people from the five rooms sit together, they behave as one. That is, Lalon was explaining in symbolic terms, and I’m here speaking from my knowledge and observation, that regardless of where one comes from or from whatever guru one comes, that when sitting in the society of human beings, one should be in a place of one-centeredness, one mind, and of one accord. 

[KEITH]

So here's a related question that you requested and that actually I want to ask, namely that you and your wife Sadhika Srijoni Tania were initiated into the Baul tradition by Nahir Shah. So you're a "scholar-practitioner" as we say in English, you're building a kind of bridge between these two universes. Could you say a little about this and what its meaning is for you, how it happened, and so on? 

[SAYMON]

Yes, it's a very important question because we very much need scholar practitioners, since many people who research Bauls end up spreading hate about Bauls. Such as, one teacher among us who I am able to mention is Dr. Anwarul Karim. Upon reading his books, we can see that he listens to many popular stories and other kinds of hearsay about the Bauls, and spreads words full of blame, which our Mawlana (Islamic preachers) then pick up and use in their various sermons. However, as a practitioner when we enter inside, then we see that Baul practice has another kind of beauty. This blame that previous scholars cast, we don't find a cause for this blame in the practice itself. However, if I don't enter into the practice (sādhana), then I am also an outsider. There's a big difference between what is said as an outside and what is said as an insider. As in, before it was like I was speaking about something without seeing its form, that is, I didn't have an opportunity to ask about it,as if I were speaking about what I could see or what I was practicing. 

And we've taken the practitioner perspective since, as you know from Sadhika Srijoni Tania's background, her paternal grandfather Khoda Baksh Shah was engaged in Baul practice, and obtained the fruits of accomplishment (siddhi) after a long period of practice. He received the highest national honors, and received a fellowship from the Bangla Academy, and worked at the level of a scholar even while being a Fakir, and the book that we edited together, Carol Salomon's City of Mirrors: Songs of Lālan Sā̃i, Khoda Baksh also helped verify a lot of the translations, readings, and Bengali sources, and had an important role to play in the book's formation. And the people who sing Lalon's songs at present, such as Farida Parveen, Chandana Majumdar, Dila Fozreva, and many others, Dipti Rajbongshi...it can be seen that they are all Khoda Baksh Sai's students, and they learned songs directly from him. Srijoni Tania's father Abdul Latif Shah was also a famous artist, and so this practice was present in their family tradition. From these practices it can be said that they have a kind of inherited experience.

And for my part my own cultural experience, and the many years I have spent among Bauls, and the fact that I've been attended Baul sadhu-gatherings (sādhu-saṅga) continuously since 1989—I go to the Baul sadhu-gatherings, talk to them, mingle with them, and they stay at my house and I stay at theirs, I had a harmonious relationship with them from before. However, this was a relationship of a devotee (bhakta). When I took initiation (dīkṣā) from them, then I became a part of their family, and then my responsibility increased, as in carrying out the work of the teacher (guru). And as for the way that we explain Lalon's songs as a scholar, in order to understand these songs from the inside there's actually no alternative to initiation (dīkṣā). And what happens in initiation is that I have the ability as well as the power, such that whereas before when I would discuss how these songs changed or developed over time, many times I was prevented from explaining them fully.

In particular those on the path of Lalon (Lālan-panthī), or those who aren't on Lalon's path but are devotees, they would often ask how I could talk about these songs if I am not a Fakir. When we receive initiation then our work becomes easy. And our goal is that to receive initiation does not only mean intellectual knowledge, but we also want to stay as practitioners. So finally we will go forth as practitioners and will establish a hermitage house (āśram-bāṛi) and will live there—that is our desire. This is our desire since, if Lalon had been born in these times,  how would his hermitage be? How would the way of his practice (sādhana) be? This we had never thought of before. So if we have to establish a kind of school in the path of Lalon's practice that will remain relevant for future people, or if we move forward with this work, then cooperation will be needed. And we will be able to develop a hermitage house in this way. 

Here in the meantime one person has done this, as you know Deborah Elliot Cuckierman from France took initiation (dīkṣā) from my guru Fakir Nahir Shah. After practicing for several years and obtaining fruits from this practice, she, they as a pair on last December 23, took khilafat (advanced initiation), and obtained khilka (robes of the same). So it can be said that she, a highly educated person coming from France, with a Masters degree from France and another university in England, and in America she was doing her PhD at another university, but while still doing her PhD, she spent time after coming to Bangladesh in the company of sadhus (sādhu-saṅga), she became interested after spending time in this company of sadhus and took initiation in the Baul school of thought (mat), and upon giving up everything, she dedicated her soul/self to the feet of her guru, and with abandonment brought herself to the practice (sādhana).

So then this has been a benefit to the Fakiri way of practice, and the creation of a new history in Bangladesh. And following this history, if we want to expand it  and make it more sustainable, and to make it worthwhile for people to work on, then certainly people like us who are educated—philosophically educated, that is, I am speaking of myself as educated in philosophical terms—need to be connected to the company of sadhus (sādhu-saṅga), and need to obtain initiation from a teacher (guru) and engage in the practices (sādhana). And then I think what we have wanted and what we have dreamed of, namely that we want to create a unity between creative knowledge and traditional knowledge, then to create this unity first one needs to let go of oneself.  It's necessary to have proof from oneself that "I could do it," "I'm doing it," and "You can come next." If I only talk about it and don't do it, then this saying has no meaning. 

I'll finish by saying one more thing, that in our childhood we would hear a saying when I would approach the Bauls in order to know the truths (tattva) of the Bauls:"You want to know everything while sitting on the banks of the river?" "Do you want to know what water is, or do you want to come down to the water and know what it is?" So then I would say that "no, coming down to the water to know it is the absolute best of the best." So actually that which we call Baul Fakiri practice, the path of practice among the followers of Lalon (Lālan-panthī), has a real inherent form (prakr̥ta svarūp), meaning that it is meant to be experienced. I couldn't see any alternative to obtaining initiation from the way of the utterance of the teacher. 

[KEITH]

As I have heard that among the Sufis there is a saying, "How can one understand the taste of honey without tasting it?" 

[SAYMON]

Yes, Lalon also had a song, where chira (cereal flakes) don't get wet unless one gives them water or milk. All the Fakirs speak in this way. 

And I think you had another part of your questions, namely about the revival of Charya songs, right? 

[KEITH]

Yes, there are two more questions, well, there was a part, maybe you could say a few sentences about Lalon's importance?  

[SAYMON]

Oh, yes.

[KEITH]

Maybe those who are listening would not know his importance.

[KEITH]

Fakir Lalon Sai's importance in Bangladesh is actually limitless, since as I said before, Bangladesh is a land of  so many religions and views. There are many philosophies that are practiced here. There are many kinds of practices. But Lalon did the work of a great incarnated being (avatār) in finding a unity between them all. Yet we the Bangladesh people even today have not been able to communicate the real meanings and correct explanations and analyses of the ways of practice (sādhana) to other people. If we could only express them, then differences of opinion among the Bangladeshi people, even political differences based on philosophy that you're seeing now, would be resolved. And even all the extremism based on religion still happening here now would be resolved. 

Lalon practiced his whole life for the sake of this very topic, that it is necessary for humans to identify themselves as human, and that within me this Sai or Niranjan resides. This Sai and Niranjan are an alternative name for Allah. And the people who 2,000 years ago said Sai or Niranjan, our country's esoteric practitioners who contemplated and practiced, this Lalon continually expressed within his songs. He expressed this in order to foreground historical and cultural traditional practices and so that people in the future will find a way and take his place. 

As for Lalon's importance, actually as we've seen Lalon was important in society even in his own time. We know that one of Lalon's near-contemporaries, the nobel laureate and poet Rabindranath Tagore, attached importance to Lalon, and Lalon's contemporary Kangal Harinath also attached importance to him, and another of our country's important writers, Mir Mosharraf Hossain, also attached importance to Lalon. And all the intellectuals of that period attached importance to Lalon. There were two reasons for this. One was the literary value of Lalon's songs. And the other reason was in the context of Lalon's philosophy (darśan) and practice (sādhana). And the way that he brought the regional traditions of our country together is also extremely beautiful. And even today, if you ask what the most favorite type of song is among the Bangladesh people, it will be Lalon's songs. And if we have to say what specific name is the most said around Bangladesh, that would be Lalon Sai's name. 

And I've seen in a book that I've obtained, which probably came out around 1965, the book is called "A Daughter of Lalon in Lenin's Country" (Leniner deśe Lālaner meẏe). At that time a member of parliament from Pakistan wrote it as a story about traveling to Russia. So around 1965, in the same way as Lenin was identified with Russia, Lalon was identified with Bangladesh. And even today we think that Lalon is Bangladesh's biggest icon. And currently in Bangladesh, as we know from the book festival put on by the Bangla Academy, there at minimum 10 whole books will newly be released on Lalon, even if these books will have the same content, and cover the same topics. And publishing a compilation of Lalon's songs is still one of the proudest moments for publishers. Every publisher wants to publish a compilation of Lalon's songs, and have done so. And Lalon is now not only important on account of his contemplative philosophy, he also has become important as a commodity, such as in the book business, song business, media business—he's gone everywhere. And the instrument business, like the ektara (one-stringled lyre). Lalon's ektara. You've traveled to Kushtia, and in Kushtia there are many, many ektara shops. The shops being there means that many ektaras are sold. Regardless of whether or not they can play it, they hold it. 

[KEITH]

And in the whole country it's become such a natural thing, such as there's Lalon's bus line, Lalon bridge,

[SAYMON]

Yes, definitely.

[KEITH]

It's good to bring this up since we could do a whole other interview just on Lalon's value in literature. But you said something great about practice (sādhana), and we discuss a lot about this context in this podcast. So I ask everyone who comes on this question, namely in what ways does your work connect with Occult South Asia? And here I'm speaking of "occult" as it pertains to hidden truths (or principles, realities = tattva), meaning as a global topic, not only in English. As in, within Bengali songs and poems there are often very deep truths, as you expressed before, like among Sufis there is bātun (Arabic bāṭin) and jāher (Arabic ẓāhir), what we say in English esoteric or exoteric, or how do beliefs of jinn and pari (a fairy-like being) spread, and so on. Can you speak a little more on this topic? 

[SAYMON]

Bangladesh is actually a very important place for occult/hidden (gupta) teachings. You've certainly traveled a lot to various regions that identified with traditional hidden truths. As for example that place far along the ocean, near Cox's Bazar, Maheshkali, Adinath Mandir (Temple). Adinath Temple is an ancient place for hidden teachings, and apart from this there is the Buddhist monstastery (vihār) at Paharpur, and Mainamati, all these places relate to hidden practices. And there's the place near Dhaka associated with Atisha Dipankara's birthplace, called Vikrampur, which was also an ancient place for hidden practices. And when we do work on manuscripts, then many, many such manuscripts have occult/hidden teachings.

As for example we find many diagrams that are on the topic of hidden practices and how this hidden practice is able to help people—there's a lot of literary text that mentions this in diagrammatic form. Aside from this, we find that the foundational part of Baul practice is hidden (gupta).

About Baul songs and practice, as much as we people listen to Lalon's songs, like "How does the unknown bird in the cage come and go?" It seems very ordinary but it's very hidden. Everyone asks, "What is the bird?" "What is the cage?" They are not able to resolve such questions—no one, even today. And Lalon has many, many of these songs related to occult practice (gupta sādhana), and indeed the practice of Lalon's followers itself depends on hidden teachings, and even is founded upon these. Because our gurus have a saying that, if a seed is kept hidden, that is, beneath the soil, from there a tree with branches will emerge. But if the seed is scattered on the surface of the soil, or if the hidden things are expressed, then there will be no fruit from the seed, as no tree is made, and the seed is wasted. It's for this reason with regard to practices that many keep their practices hidden. And they do this so that an interest arises among people, so that many people will remain devoted to these practices, and so that they are able to spread the practices even more.

You asked another question about jinn and pari, exoteric and esoteric. As for jinn and pari, as modern as we Bangladeshi people become, we still see in the media and social media, and on television, that there are many stories about jinn and pari. There are many children of jinn, and also in Bangladeshi cinema there are children of jinn. Jinn influence many people, and many people even lead a jinn-centric life. 

I have a friend who was my classmate, we studied at the same school together. He also taught classes at a university — Khulna University. He basically went crazy. He suddenly came to me much later, about 15 or 16 years later, and told me, "I have a relationship with a jinn." He told me about the relationship with the jinn and described how the relationship worked, and as the Qu'ran makes the jinn known, he said that we aren't able to deny the existence of jinn, since the jinn are mentioned in the Qu'ran, and since the Qu'ran is a holy book, a true book. And holding on to this belief, he had an encounter with the jinn. And when I spoke with his mother about what happened, and why he fell into this condition, she told me that he doesn't trust me, he doesn't trust his mother and that he doesn't eat what his mother cooks for him. He sits in a room — he had been teaching at the university, but gave up his job and career and so on. He stays alone in a dark room, keeps candles lit all around, cooks for himself and eats, and doesn't talk to anyone.

Many similar incidents like this still happen in Bangladesh, and are here. And you certainly saw that in Bangladesh there are many cremation grounds and cemeteries. Many esoteric practitioners (sādhaka) still reside at cremation grounds and cemeteries in Bangladesh. And they especially still establish relationships with jinn, pari, ghosts (bhūta), and practice with them, or perform practices of folk healing through these means — there is this kind of idea among people. There has not yet been any deep research about this, because the educated people in our country always want to ignore this, but here also is a sociological, anthropological, and knowledge-based identity. We have not been able to do any meaningful studies on this in those ways. There is however some mention of this in our publications of the Bangla Academy, but this research hasn't happened in any extended way according to modern methodologies.

And "esoteric" (bātun). "Esoteric" is a foundational topic in Sufi practice, such as for instance the way that Sufis here believe The Holy Quran only has 30 portions of text (pārā) that are written. But the entire Holy Qu'ran was not written down. Some of the Qu'ran remains esoteric, in the line of teacher and student. That is, it is revealed "heart-to-heart," among the students of a guru-line and they engage in practices based on these. I've seen in many, many notebooks of Bauls, an explanation of the words "exoteric" (jāher) and "esoteric" (bātun), so they use the word "esoteric" (bātun) like this: There's a word, and this word used metaphorically has one meaning, but its exoteric meaning is different. But Fakirs always use the esoteric (bātun) words so that people won't understand. But the person who engage in the practices (also) knows the exoteric (jāher) meaning. So the exoteric (jāher) meaning is also known among the Fakirs. And I've seen these meanings written down in their notebooks, but these are secret — they cannot be expressed. Like I said before, the seed has to remain hidden so that in the future it will be cultivated. So that it will transform into a tree. 

[KEITH]

Yes, I have a lot of interest — later I'll have to discuss Panju Shah with you a little bit. Maybe a topic for another podcast, another Baul and interesting topic. So lastly, at present you are working on reviving the Buddhist Tantric Charyapada songs. You and Srijoni are doing a lot of work on this, as you mentioned earlier, and dropped a lot of hints about. Are there any hidden teachings in these songs? And first, what are these songs? And how similar are these teachings to the songs and culture of the present day? You already answered this a little bit, but if you can give any specific examples, what would they be?  Like you said earlier [the connection between] bājul, bājil, and bāul, but are there other similarities? I'm thinking of one, the symbol of the body as a boat...

[SAYMON]

And the mind/heart as an oar, this is in the Charyapada. 

Actually the Charyapada as ancient Buddhist songs, they have been spoken of like this since Hariprasad Shastri's publication—he said this in 1916 and from that time onward we've seen the Charyapada essentially as Buddhist songs. But these Charyapada Buddhist songs have a lot in common with Tantra and esoteric practice (sādhana). And there are a lot of hidden practices. And you definitely know that many of the songs have this kind of narration. 

Such as, if I say something about these hidden practices, there's a "pada" among the Charyapadas—This is pada number five. Here it says “Ask Cāṭila the incomparable lord and get the answer." 

If any one of you want to cross the river in this boat, then you need to fasten together a bridge, but if you want to know the method of crossing, then you have to know, as the Charyapada says,

jaï tumhe loa he hoiba pāragāmī / pucchatu Cāṭila anuttarasāmī

That is, you have to get an answer from someone who never gives any answers.

So how can they give an answer? Here the Charyapada is speaking in the language of hints. The answers to many things which can be understood in the presence of a guru can also arise within oneself. During our work to revive the Charyapadas, and when the Baul practitioners (sādhak) also perform the Charyapada songs—You saw how at our "sadhu-sanga" event that they explain these very much at length, and how they mention at length the ways in which it accords with their own practice (sādhana), and they simultaneously explain this with many examples. 

I want to talk about another context for occult/hidden teachings or occult/hidden practices in the Charyapada, such as the topic found in the fiftieth number of the Charyapadas: the word Nairamani (nairāmaṇi). When you went to the Buddhist monastery (vihār) at Paharpur you certainly saw the statue of Nairamani. 

[KEITH]

Oh, Nairatma (Nairātmā / Nairātmyā)? 

[SAYMON]

Yes. This Charyapada calls this goddess Nairatma by the name of Nairamani. In the fiftieth Charyapada this is strangely expressed. It goes: "In the Sky (above) the Sky (there is) an overgrown garden (wherein there is) the spade of the heart; when at the neck the delightful [Nairātmā] girl awakens, it is dug up."

gaaṇata gaaṇata taïlā bāṛī hia kurāṛī / 

kaṇṭhe nairāmaṇi bāli jāgante upāṛī //

This means that Nairamani, this Nairatma, it's not as if she doesn't have any physical form—we have seen her physical form in the statue. It's an idol of a woman, and there's a lot of similarity between her and the snake goddess, which is one topic, and this goddess controls the ida, pingala, and sushumna (three channels) and actually one who practices (sādhana), they — like (in the Charyapada)  "gaaṇata gaaṇata taïlā bāṛī hia [or bāḍhi heñce] kurāṛī." I've translated this as "In the sky (gagana), in the sky, in that sky is your third home," I translated one like that. [text from Charyapada translation into Bengali.] These are the kind of literary translations that I've done.

In our place of reviving the Charyapada songs, and the importance that we have given to some places, in our country many intellectuals have set these to music, and have even sung one or two. I have also on my own from 1989 to 1995, and my friend set this Charyapada translation to music, and these were modern melodies. And later I brought them among the Baul Fakirs, since it was my observation that these were the songs of esoteric practitioners (sādhaka), songs for the people who are doing esoteric practice (sādhana). So if these songs are expressed by their voices, that would be best, and that they themselves would adopt the songs. 

So we've seen that since we tried to revive the Charyapada songs within the Baul and Fakir practitioners (sādhaka), here we have a few practitioner artists among us, such as Shah Alam Dewan, he does Sufi practice, Baul Antar Sarkar, he is also connected to a practice, Shila Mallik, and as you mentioned Sadhika Srijoni Tania, and then Babul Akter from the Paharpur Buddhist monastery (vihāra), there are many over there, such as Shiv Charan, many types (of practitioner artists). Each of them have not only set the Charyapada to music, neither are they merely singing the songs, but they are explaining them. And in these explanations they are finding similarities with their own practice (sādhana).

Like when we were with Pabna district's Fakir Abul Hashem—he is initiated into a Sufi practice—when he plays the Charyapada songs, and sometimes when he sings them, he will give me a call. He will call from Pabna—"Guru! I'm getting this teaching from the songs that is exactly like our Sufi practice." They are not only finding resonance with Baul practice, but also with Sufi practice! Just like Baul Antar Sarkar said yesterday at our "Sadhu Sanga," that in a village where he went to sing Sufi songs, he sang a Charyapada song. Someone asked him, "Hey! What are you doing singing a Charyapada song—are the (Five) Holy People (pāñjātan) there in the song?" 

Baul Antar Sarkar said, "What do you mean, no Holy People? Before the creation of the Holy People, the Charyapada created the Holy People."

"How?" 

Our Baul Antar Sarkar said, "You haven't heard?' 

[Charyapada song]

Here are the Holy People.

[Charyapada song]

They explain the songs and show their meanings in this way. In this way the Charyapada songs are seen as a creative work. Here the Bauls are entirely participating and are explaining them in their own way, and are spreading them in their own way.

You said at the beginning in the introduction that I was present at a great conference, a UNESCO symposium in Paraguay. I gave a speech especially on the topic of the Charyapada song revival, and you had edited the main part of my speech in the English language. In this language I had tried to explain how our people had revived the Charyapadas, and how they had connected to their own practice (sādhana). 

[KEITH]

So, it was a great conversation, and thank you very much Saymon, Saymon Brother, Dr. Saymon Zakaria. And I think it may be the first interview from Harvard University  in the Bangla language, so in that sense it's historic. Certainly, so thanks for creating this history and I also express my gratitude to Harvard University. And especially to those who have taken up this initiative, bringing different scholars together. It's a great initiative because if we are able to highlight linguistic diversity then the international community of scholars can also expand. And then we can discuss more at length about the traditions of hidden practices in many different countries, and it will be helpful to future scholars.

There are a lot of new insights in what we discussed today, and I'm certain that I also may explore these insights in an extended way, and maybe interest will arise in you or in someone else to do the same. I invite everyone to come to Bangladesh and research.

[KEITH]

I enjoyed it very much, and as I likely hinted at earlier, I as a "foreigner" sometimes hear the opinion that these occult teachings or deep things are really weird. Or that they have no value — they're nothing. And after hearing you speak, it's clear that in Bangladesh there is such a deep culture and deep truths. And that if we actually listen to these and pay attention then there's so much, not only about occult teachings but about human beings and society, and about everything. So it was such a great privilege for you to be able to come and discuss these things for us. 

[SAYMON]

Thanks and gratitude for you. 

[KEITH]

Joy Guru (jaẏ guru, victory to the teacher), Alek Sai (the absolute)

[KEITH]

Joy Guru, Alek Sai (the absolute)