Video: Embodied Ethnographies of Healing: Senses, Images, and Trance

In this Gnoseologies event, Giovanna Parmigiani, Ph.D., CSWR Research Associate and host of “Gnoseologies,” had a conversation with Emily Pierini, Assistant Professor in Anthropology at Sapienza University of Rome, Italy. Focusing on Pierini’s long-standing, embodied ethnographic work and writing, they discussed contemporary spirituality, Brazilian mediumistic religions, ethnographies of healing, spirit mediumship and possession, the role of the senses in contemporary academic knowledge-production, and the relationship between anthropology, ethnography, and healing processes.

Emily Pierini, Ph.D., is an Assistant Professor in Anthropology at Sapienza University of Rome, Italy. A former Marie Skłodowska-Curie Fellow, she has conducted ethnographic research in the temples of the Vale do Amanhecer (Brazil, Europe, and the U.S.), in Afro-Brazilian religions (Brazil), and on Goddess Spirituality (UK and Italy). She is co-founder and coordinator of the HEAL Network for the Ethnography of Healing. Her publications include Jaguars of the Dawn: Spirit Mediumship in the Brazilian Vale do Amanhecer (Berghahn, 2020). Dr. Pierini is also co-author of Other Worlds, Other Bodies: Embodied Epistemologies and Ethnographies of Healing (Berghahn, 2023), and the Berghahn Series Epistemologies of Healing

[MUSIC PLAYING] SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School.

SPEAKER 2: Embodied Ethnographies of Healing Senses, Images, and Trance. November 6, 2024.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Good afternoon, and welcome to our gnoseologies event. My name is Giovanna Parmigiani. And I'm the host of this series organized within the Transcendence and Transformation Initiative at the CSWR at Harvard Divinity School. As some of you might know, this series focuses on ways of knowing that are often labeled as non-rational.

Traditionally referred to as gnosis in Western philosophical and religious traditions and often understood in contraposition to science, these ways of knowing are becoming more and more influential in the contemporary society's, popular culture and academic research. What is the place of spirit possession, divination, and experiences perceived as out of the ordinary in our lives?

How can we study and approach this type of phenomenon? Going beyond dichotomies such as body and mind, ordinary and extraordinary, reason and experience and matter and spirit, this series hosts scholars of different disciplines and practitioners interested in exploring and expanding the boundaries of what counts as knowledge today.

So it is with immense pleasure that I introduce today's guest, Professor Emily Pierini. Hi, Emily. Emily Pierini is an anthropologist, assistant professor at Sapienza University of Rome, Italy, co-founder and coordinator of the Hill Network for the Ethnography of Healing.

She has been a Marie Curie Fellow with a project on trance and transnational healing, in partnership with Sapienza, UFSC Brazil, and the University of Oxford. She has conducted ethnographic research in the temples of the spiritualist Christian order, Vale do Amanhecer, Valley of Dawn, in Brazil, Europe and the United States, in Afro-Brazilian religions, ungodly spirituality in the UK and Italy, and faith healing in Portugal.

She is the author of the book Jaguars of the Dawn-- Spirit Mediumship in the Brazilian Vale do Amanhecer and co-editor of volume, Other Words, Other Bodies-- Embodied Epistemologies and Ethnographies of Healing, and of the Berghahn book series, Epistemologies of Healing.

Today, Professor Pierini and I will have a conversation on Emily's longstanding embodied ethnographic work and writing on contemporary spirituality, Brazilian mediumistic religions, ethnographies of healing, spirit mediumship and possession, the role of the senses in contemporary academic knowledge production, and the relationship between anthropology, ethnography and healing processes. Thank you, Emily, for being here.

EMILY PIERINI: Thank you. Giovanna Thank you so much for inviting me. And I thank the Harvard Divinity School, the Center for the Study of World Religions. And it's a pleasure to have this conversation with you. We had other chances to exchange ideas. And I find it very inspiring. So thank you so much.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you because I love your work. And my students and I have read part of Other Worlds, Other Bodies that I really recommend to many. And I couldn't wait to have you here and hear more about your work. So as regulars know, we always start from background stories. We love background stories.

So do you want to tell us how you got interested in anthropology and anthropology of religion? Who have been your significant and current encounters in this journey, challenges, boons and so on?

EMILY PIERINI: Yeah. Thank you for the question. I mean, it's always challenging to go back and also put together the pieces of our stories, of our path and how to narrate them and seeing how they fit in a narrative. So encounters is a great starting point.

So I think through our story, through our encounters, because this is what we do, especially when we do fieldwork. And well, I'm going back, I must say that first image, as we will speak about image today, is the image of this big theater where we used to do classes at Sapienza.

And when I walked into my first anthropology class and there was this Italian visual anthropologist Massimo Canevacci, a Brazilianist who introduced the course by saying that anthropology is a kind of moving across cultures, but also moving our multiple selves. And this kind of resonated with my own biography because I grew up in between cultures, the Italian and the British one.

I come from a multicultural family, so I kind of resonated with that idea. And then he also shared with us this view in academia that was not a place to reproduce knowledge, but it was a place that could afford this kind of creative possibilities of producing new knowledge with others. So I kind of reoriented my research towards Brazil.

Well, firstly because he was a Brazilianist, so much of the course revolved around it. And I got fascinated, even though I never thought about Brazil in those terms before. And then I traveled to Brazil for my research. Well, I decided to become an anthropologist. And then I traveled to the UK for my postgraduate studies, and I encountered my mentor, Fiona Bowie, and at Bristol University.

And with Fiona, she's been an excellent supervisor for my PhD, that kind of supervisor who knows how to ask the right questions to get you thinking and challenge you. And with Fiona, we founded the Afterlife Research center. And I also share what remains of our website because this was many years ago. So--

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Please go ahead. And it's very interesting when you pull up the website because some of my guests encounter phenomena, right? And got interested in phenomena. While you encountered persons actually who got you interested. And it's a very nice take on the role of encounters and how they eventually guide our lives and life choices.

So thank you for sharing that. So tell us about the Afterlife Research Center.

EMILY PIERINI: So yeah, the idea was to address those phenomena that relate to visions of the afterlife, cosmologies, life beyond matters or particularly possession, shamanism and healing. And then also, the approach was to take what people tell us as an ethnographic fact and then analyze it consequentially and then examine these practices through the lenses of people experiences and see and trace consistencies and differences.

And so we organized several workshops, panels, so several initiatives. Until then we moved away from Bristol. We continued for a while with Afterlife Research Center. We still have all the archive of our events and programs. But then in 2013, I met Alberto Groisman, a Brazilian anthropologist.

With Alberto, we started to reflect and question upon why ethnographers very rarely tackle their own experiences of healing in the field as we all go through some kind of illnesses, tropical illnesses and experiences such as this, when we travel to other countries for our fieldwork. And sometimes these experiences are also addressed through local therapeutic systems.

So we were wondering what were the challenges of reflecting upon these experiences in terms of ethnographic knowledge. In my work also, claim that the issue here is with the primacy given to the category of belief particularly, rather than experience. And so how belief is rather a territory of contested categories. And so how can we address experience?

For example, my interlocutors never mention in their narratives their belief about spirits, but they rather talk about their experience of spirits, both in their bodies, in their everyday life, how they change their trajectories, and so on. And so how can we reestablish this view upon experience?

So we launched several calls to researchers out there to reflect upon the experience of the ethnographer, describe their experiences of healing. And we had quite a pretty response from people who were looking for a place to discuss methodologically these experiences, because they didn't know how to fit them in their ethnographies.

And so we started this conversation in conference panel in large, conference of Anthropological Association, mainly the [INAUDIBLE], the [INAUDIBLE]. And then we set up a network first at the Universidade Federal de Santa Catarina in Brazil through the Instituto Brasil Plural, funded by the CNPq, a funding agency in Brazil, which was called Spirituality, Health, Embodiment and Ethnography.

So we had some workshops in Brazil. And it then became the current HEAL Network for the Ethnography of Healing, which was founded in 2018. It's a network with a free membership. It's international, interdisciplinary, so it brings together scholars from the field of anthropology, of religious studies, psychology, and then tries to foster a dialogue.

Also with practitioners of healing, being them spiritual therapist or medical practitioners, medical professionals on contemporary and alternative medicine practitioners, and start to have a conversation around healing. So something more participated in this sense also opens the door to conversation outside our academic conferences.

And through the network, we organized several events in the past. Well, the most recent one was in Rome in June. We had a workshop on healing ecology on medical diversity organized along with Casey in Erlangen, Friedrich-Alexander-University, and the HEAL Network and convened by myself, Paul Stoller and Conerly Casey.

And we always try to add a practical workshop inside our main workshop. So in this case, we had a wonderful ethnographic songwriting workshop with Kristina Jacobsen, which was really unexpected. I mean, I didn't know what to expect from an ethnographic songwriting, but it was brilliant, really.

And in the year before, again, in Sapienza, had a conference, Sapienza in Trance: Healing, Cooperation, and Imagination, where we address the main category of healing cooperation through the lens of spiritual trance as a phenomenon. And we invited Thomas Csordas as a keynote, main keynote.

And we also had some workshops within the conference, like a visual ethnography workshop with Roger Canals and Erminia Colucci tackling visual approaches to healing cooperation and mental health. HEAL Network workshop with practitioners, discussing pathways to healing cooperation, a book launch and even another visual ethnography lab with Roger Canal on filming the invisible.

In Oxford, we rather talk about moving and being moved, healing conversion, trance and transnationalism, again, with a workshop on a film session discussing Roger Canals' Chasing Shadows, so spirits and healing, capturing weight, capturing lightness. And then we also had a workshop in Brazil on mediumship and health.

And in this case, we had local practitioners. It's like a multilocal workshop where we invite local practitioners. And in this case, we had mediums from the Vale do Amanhecer, a psychiatrist working in a spiritist clinic, a shamanic practitioner, and a psychologist, anthropologist discussing how to think in plural terms about mediumship and health, and so on.

We organized other events, and particularly also other publications that came out from our events. In particular, from a [INAUDIBLE] panel, we produced this edited volume, Other Worlds, Other Bodies, edited by myself, Alberto Groisman and Diana Espirito Santo, where we ask authors to assess and discuss their bodily experiences in terms of the ethnographic knowledge we produce.

And we ask to reflect our own epistemologies of the body. And we especially use this analytical category of epistemological embodiment that signals that personally scholarly experience of the unknown shapes, concepts of healing, of trance, of body, of the self that we use then to craft out our analysis.

And so we have chapters dealing with the dilemma involved in how to treat these experiences, how they change our relationships in the field, the kind of methodological Luddism and playfulness involved in participation, how authors have repositioned their approaches after experiences of healing in the field.

How shared imagery with an interlocutors, for example in rituals, this shared images are produced by intersubjectivity, intercorporeality. So we assess all these themes. And the network fosters this kind of collaboration between members to create new research projects, new events together, working in smaller groups or organizing wider network events.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Thanks a lot, Emily. So you started your background story with mentioning some of the key figures and person you encountered, and then you moved to healing. Does the encounter with your interlocutors oriented you towards healing? In other words, does your with Vale do Amanhecer-- and if you want to tell us something about how you got to encounter them, what it is.

And did that somehow reframe your attention towards healing or not?

EMILY PIERINI: Oh, absolutely. I mean, my encounter with the Vale do Amanhecer was the outcome of an encounter with the medium of the Vale do Amanhecer. So I was planning to do research in Afro-Brazilian religions, Candomblé and Umbanda, which I did years later.

But my main fieldwork turned out to be the Vale do Amanhecer because in 2003, I encountered a woman in Italy, Ana Paula, a Brazilian woman. And she happened to be also a medium of the Vale do Amanhecer. So she said, well, if you need contacts in Bahia to do your research on Candomblé, I can provide you with some contacts in some [PORTUGUESE]

But first, I will tell you about another religion in Brazil called Vale do Amanhecer. And I was like, vale what? And then she showed me this image of the vale. And it's like Mitchell's book, what images do.

And what this image actually did was catching my attention and also paving the way for my field work because I saw this immense, colorful, sacred spaces, which I thought it was-- the challenge, it represented the challenge of addressing something that can be so easily depicted in a sensationalist and reductionist terms.

So that was the challenge to see what people are actually doing in the vale. And I traveled to the vale, and I began my research. But first, I might go back and show some pictures of the vale because they--

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Yes, please.

EMILY PIERINI: --speak on their own.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Please mention this image that actually changed--

EMILY PIERINI: Yeah.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: --your academic life, please.

EMILY PIERINI: Yes. So firstly, before speaking of the vale, the context is important, from which the vale arised. So imagine this massive enterprise of constructing a new capital of Brazil in the 1960s. Well, Brasilia was constructed in four years as part of the presidential plan of the president, Juscelino Kubitschek.

And this massive enterprise of constructing a capital in the middle of the desert with all kind of myths and narratives of prophecies that surround this utopian dream of Juscelino Kubitschek realized by Lúcio Costa and Oscar Niemeyer through this evocative architecture and urban plan, which such a symbolic power linked to the past, to the pyramids that then attracted so many spiritual communities to the new capital.

But within this construction, it's interesting that a woman named [INAUDIBLE]. She was the first woman with a patent as a truck driver license in Brazil. And she was working for the NOVACAP, the company that was constructing Brasilia. She was a truck driver, widow with four children, 33 years old. And she started suddenly started to have some spontaneous mediumistic phenomenon. She claimed that she was seeing spirits and traveling to other dimensions.

And suddenly, she started to control these phenomena. she claims she started to listen to what the spirits were telling her and to manifest what she was seeing beyond matter through the materials available at the time. She constructed sacred spaces, the ritual garments, and all the Vale do Amanhecer.

And then with all her followers, she started the first community that now became a town inhabited mostly by mediums. It's like a 15,000 people are inhabitants in the vale just outside Brasilia. And this town became a spiritual center, very important also for tourism in Brazil.

And also recognized-- well, this is in the process of recognition by the Institute of National Artistic Heritage in Brazil as immaterial heritage. And then from the vale, the main temple, the Templo Mae, the Mother Temple, they opened other temple, 1,200 temples worldwide, so even outside Brazil, in Europe, in North America, near Harvard as well.

And so it's expanding transnationally. And mediums of the vale, [INAUDIBLE] started to train some mediums and now they became a community of mediums. They have their jobs outside the vale but work as mediums in their free times. And it's a very heterogeneous composition of the mediumistic body of the temple.

And the temple is thought as a spiritual emergency center, where people go through a number of rituals to get what they call this obsessive healing, that is the release of spirits that are said to be attached to the person and causing some kind of imbalances in the body and the life of the person. And they are incorporated by mediums and then released to the spirit world.

And all the rituals work with these healing forces, cleansing, cleansing, cleansing the patients through ritual. The rituals are happening 24 hours a day because the temples work on an emergency kind of need. And there are thousands of mediums that also work in the open air [? ritual ?] spaces.

And this was the picture that I saw with Ana Paula. It was this colorful picture of the outdoor [? ritual ?] space with the pyramid, the cross, the lips and all these images, these elements that we know from other religions. So the challenge for me was also to the challenge of deconditioning, as Alberto Groisman puts it, the conditioning, one body, the conditioning ourselves from our academic concepts.

And so to unlearn, and relearn ways of knowing, for example, I ought to-- I saw how my concepts from my training of syncretism, of possession clashed with what people said they were doing. And rather than syncretism, all these elements that come together in the Vale do Amanhecer, and they constitute this global character of the Vale do Amanhecer to do with a particular construction of what I call a transhistorical self.

And so joining the religion practice in human history in relation to an idea of karma and of past lives of the medium that come together, are brought together in rituals for healing. But also the notion of possession. It's a tricky notion in Brazil, especially in Afro-Brazilian religions.

It is kind of rejected by practitioners for not applying to the phenomenology of trance as it is, which does not entail a full takeover of the medium's body and consciousness and awareness by a spirit, but is a practice that is conceived to be developed and controlled according to cultural codes of manifestation of the spirits and even trance.

I refer to this ethnographic category and use the vale to describe this kind of mediumistic state of consciousness that has a different gradients of awareness. Or for example, in the vale, they developed two kind of mediums, the one that works with a conscious trance and the one with semi-conscious trance with this latter entailing the incorporation of spirits.

And even the concept of mediumship in the vale is a concept which is draws on an embodiment, is said to be produced by and developed by the body, so produced by the blood flow, it's like a substance. It's intended as a substance.

So that sometimes is produced in excess, and that excess may cause some imbalance in the body of people because according to mediums of the vale, mediumship is shared by all human bodies, so everyone can potentially be a medium and develop mediumship. But sometimes people come with this excess energy that if work the control that can be distributed for healing.

So this is the conceptualization of mediumship. So I addressed this practice, in particular I focus on the process of learning mediumship as learning a way of knowing through the body and the senses.

And I addressed it as a process in terms of encirclement, so of an education of perception, which works at different levels, which is somatosensory, which is intuitive, is performative, is cognitive, but it's also intersubjective. And I examined how mediums learning this practice, mediumistic trance, articulated this new notions and experiences of the body and the self, intended as an extended self.

And then farther on, I enlarge my perspective on-- here. Sorry. This is some images from the rituals. Mediums work with patients in the temple for this obsessive healing. And all these ideas on my work. Two decades of research in the vale are part of a Jaguars of the Dawn: Spirit Mediumship in the Brazilian Vale do Amanhecer. My monograph on the Valley vale.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: And I just shout out, sorry, that this monograph is actually now on sale on the Publishing House website. So if you're interested in doing in reading more about Vale do Amanhecer nature and Emily's research, you can find the link in the chat. Sorry, that was super--

EMILY PIERINI: Thank you. Thank you so much. And then I enlarge my perspective through Marie Curie Global Fellowship, in which I looked at transnational healing, therapeutic trajectories in the spirit of trance, as you mentioned, through Sapienza University of Rome, Universidade Federal de Santa Catarina and Oxford School of Anthropology and Museum Ethnography.

In which I asked how people learn and narrate about mediumistic trance in different cultures with what kind of consistencies and differences and how they use it therapeutically. So how they learn to incorporate spirits, how they visualize them in mediumistic trance, so the image of spirits and mediumistic trance with the same practice of the Vale do Amanhecer across cultures.

So in Italy, in Portugal, in the US and in Brazil, it was a multi-sited fieldwork. And so what came out from this project, one of the main finding of this project was the action of this sensory images and healing in cases of mediums were developed in mediumship for anxiety, nervous disorders, physical illness or addiction.

And how these images were emerging from the trance states or in semi-conscious mediumship in particular, and continued to work within the body through this kind of processual action. To give you an example of one of my interlocutors, she is a woman who arrived in the vale with the symptoms of early menopause, chronic cystitis, chronic pain, fatigue. And she was advised to develop her mediumship, besides all the medical treatment that she was undergoing in the biomedical system.

And during one of these sessions of learning mediumship, she said-- she recounted that she saw three images of a rose, flowing waters, and a road, and that these images continue to work within her body for a few days until two days later, her period reappeared after two years of menopause.

And she interpreted this as the action of the waters, of these images of the waters that were addressing what she called their pathology of stagnating waters, that is cystitis and early menopause. And so she felt that by working with her mediumship, she was able to regulate the boundaries between herself and others that were probably causing all this pain that she was feeling.

And somehow, we can draw on shore this idea of imaginal performance to address how this revelatory image somehow created this position to be healed. And I address these images, these experiences, as transformative experiences in the sense the transformation occurs through a formative experience such as learning mediumship.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Emily, thank you for this. I really loved many of the things you said. Well, all of them, but especially some. And while I encourage the audience to ask questions in the Q&A box, I was particularly interested in your focus on learning. So one of the questions I would like to ask you, if you learn how to be a medium and if you want to respond to this question.

If you don't, I would love to know more about the embodied aspect of ethnography and the material aspect of ethnography, because what does it mean to include bodied and embodied knowledge in your ethnographic practices, in your experience? How is the sensory ethnographic aspect of your work at play in your fieldwork?

I'm teaching this semester, a course-- the next semester, actually, a course in religion, materiality, and the senses and sensory ethnography. And I think it's great and a great instrument to inhabit the ethnographic space in ways that open up possibilities, questions and dimensions. And so I was very curious to know your take on this.

EMILY PIERINI: Sure. I did follow them in their [? mystic ?] development to learn the training in perception. But particularly well, we can start from the centrality of materiality in the study of religion. As Birgit Meyer puts it, it's the foundation through which religion happens material.

So we look at materials, the bodies and objects and how they shape religious experiences how also, they create this sense of presence. And somehow we also look at our own presence in the field, our own ways of knowing, our own ways of learning. And this is key to the anthropology of the senses, the sensory ethnography as a method as well.

So it is about listening with all our bodies while we are in the field, moving beyond the primacy of seeing because also when we close our eyes, our observation does not ceasefire. And I remember my interlocutors telling me, close your eyes in rituals because I was always looking around, looking at the formal aspects of ritual.

Were like, why don't you close your eyes and feel? But still with my eyes closed, I was always kind of analyzing and interpreting and observing with my body. And then I had to learn also how to attune my body to the field because also-- because how my body was seen by my interlocutors.

So they will see it as particularly responsive to the field as I was having-- particularly during my first fieldwork, I was having frequent fevers, pains and sickness, like tropical sicknesses.

And they will see my body as embedded in a network of fluid forces, energies and substances that were part of the Vale do Amanhecer, of the town because they say, well, we're working with these forces in the temple, even if you're laying in your bed at home in pain. Your body's responding to these forces.

And so according to them, I had to attune my body in order to regulate this kind of relationship with the environment. And somehow it also reminds me to a similar case of our common friend Paul Stoller, who interpreted his own sickness in the field through the categories of the Songhai, and so as embedded in a system of rivalries between witches.

And somehow was embedded in this ecologies of fluid and substances during my fieldwork. And so we might ask, what kind of concepts does this experience mobilize through our fieldwork, through our ethnographic knowledge, what kind of concepts?

And I had to learn also a kind of communication, which was beyond verbal. I remember one of my interlocutors was telling me a kind of-- when I was involved in a communication, in a conversation and I was asking questions, and he will suddenly change topic or interrupt me.

And at one point, he just stopped and said, look, you don't know how to feel. You should develop some kind of sensibility about feeling when the forces are favorable to develop some kind of themes in a conversation where it's better not to address them. So somehow I also had to learn another way of communicating.

And I'm not supposing in any way that my experience, my bodily experience in the field was in any way similar to those of mediums, because even between mediums, they are not similar. There are striking consistencies, of course, otherwise we wouldn't be speaking about mediumistic experience. But they are not similar.

They have not similar experience-- the same experience of the same ritual. But somehow, I tackled the potential of these resonances between my experience and those of my interlocutors, and how they emerge from the field for built in a common ground to discuss experience. So I worked more with these resonances, rather than saying that I had the same experience as them.

And we have to be aware that not all these experiences are the same. And I also propose the concept of ethnographic epiphanies as a particular mode of knowing in the field, in my chapter in Other Worlds, Other Bodies on ethnographic epiphanies.

And I draw on Jeffrey Kripal's Epiphanies of Mind, this concept of epiphanies of the mind is life-changing experiences bring about a reversal of perspective in scientists. So addressing several experiences occur to scientists and how they led to new discoveries in science.

And somehow we need to tackle materiality and our own bodily experiences in the field also to address this kind of epiphanies that emerge from our ethnographic fieldwork.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Thanks a lot, Emily. There's a question from the audience. We might-- an anonymous attendee asks, "Could you please provide insight into ethnographer/anthropologist as cultural informant themselves? Like an emic view. What and how open are pathways for academics with these experiences to publish their anthropological perspective on them, like journals, programs of study, et cetera?

EMILY PIERINI: So academics who are also practitioners--

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Yes. Their own-- let's say, I don't like autoethnography/ethnography, dichotomies, but let's say a more, if I understand correctly, the information that you gain from personally engaging with the matter that you are studying.

EMILY PIERINI: Well, I'm not that much into autoethnography, but I think that using one's experience as a way into understanding other experiences based on what I said earlier that built in a common ground. So,

the ethnographer's experience should enter the text when relevant to understand something about the culture, the group, the practice somehow.

So I'm more into using it methodologically, then of course, there is a kind of a genre of autoethnography. But certainly when discussing, I don't know, in a journal article or in a monograph, I'm more into using it more when it's methodologically relevant.

But of course, as I said, the network welcomes also practitioners because we engage in a conversation, which is not only between scholars but is engaging communities, is engaging practitioners, is engaging those are actors in the scene of healing. So why not? And there are also some journals who are experimenting with including practitioners.

And I'm thinking about the recent launch of the RENSEP journal, Praxis-Knowledge, by Bernd Otto. And they have articles by practitioners who are not even scholars. So it is about finding or creating spaces for engaging scholars, practitioners in a dialogue. So why not? We always need to experiment new formats.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Thank you, Professor Pierini, for your participation and wonderful conversation here. And thank you all for having been with us. Please stay tuned on the activities of the CSWR, of transcendence and Transformation Initiative of Gnoseologies. You can find all the information on the CSWR website that you can find in the chat, including this, which is my book presentation.

So on November 12 at 5:30 PM Eastern time, for once, I will not be asking questions, but I will actually presenting my new book, The Spider Dance, in conversation with professors Paul Stoller that and Sabina Magliocco. So please join us. And again, it will be a very interesting, I hope, way for me to answer questions and not asking them within the space of this series. Thank you all so much and see you soon. Bye.

EMILY PIERINI: Thank you so much, Giovanna, for this opportunity and good luck with the book presentation.

GIOVANNA PARMIGIANI: Thank you.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

SPEAKER 2: Sponsor, Center for the Study of World Religions.

SPEAKER 1: Copyright 2024. The President and Fellows of Harvard College.