# Video: Liquid Light Book Discussion with Bill Barnard (Psychedelics & the Future of Religion Series) March 27, 2023 On March 27, 2023 The Center for the Study of World Religions hosted an author discussion (Psychedelics & the Future of Religion Series) with Professor Bill Barnard. Charles Stang, Director of the CSWR, and Barnard discussed his recent book, [Liquid Light: Ayahuasca Spirituality and the Santo Daime Tradition](http://www.LiquidLightBook.com). Liquid Light offers an in-depth immersion into the complex and fascinating world of the Santo Daime – a relatively new religion that emerged out of the Amazon rainforest region of Brazil in the middle of the twentieth century, and which now has churches throughout the world. [G. William (Bill) Barnard](https://www.smu.edu/Dedman/Academics/Departments/Religious-Studies/People/Faculty/Barnard) is a Professor of Religious Studies, as well as a University Distinguished Teaching Professor, at Southern Methodist University, in Dallas, Texas. His primary areas of research interests are the comparative philosophy of mysticism, religion and the social sciences, contemporary spirituality, religion and healing, and consciousness studies. For over 15 years (including his ongoing study of Portuguese), Professor Barnard has researched the Santo Daime tradition, a syncretistic, entheogenically-based new religious movement that emerged in Brazil in the mid-twentieth century. Learn more at [www.LiquidLightBook.com](http://www.LiquidLightBook.com). **Liquid Light Book Discussion with Bill Barnard (Psychedelics & the Future of Religion Series)** SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School. SPEAKER 2: Liquid Light book discussion, March 27, 2023. CHARLES M. STANG: So good evening and welcome, everyone. My name is Charles Stang. I have the privilege of serving as the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. So welcome to this evening's event, which is part of our very popular series on psychedelics and the future of religion. We're delighted to have with us this evening G. William Barnard, or as I know him, Bill. And he is the author of this wonderful book, Liquid Light, Ayahuasca Spirituality and the Santo Daime Tradition, which was published by Columbia University Press in 2022. So thank you, Bill, for joining us this evening to talk about your wonderful book. Before we dive into that conversation, allow me to plug an upcoming event, our annual Hackett lecture on Global Christianity is this Thursday at 5:30 PM. Professor \[? Aparecida ?\] \[? Delasa ?\] will be speaking. She's from Brazil, and she will be speaking on translation as linguistic and bodily metamorphosis in missionary encounters in Indigenous Amazonia. She's a specialist in Christian evangelism in Amazonia. My questions for Bill will prompt him to speak of his own life and work. I'm going to keep my introductions fairly brief. G. William Barnard, or Bill, is a professor of religious studies, as well as a university distinguished teaching professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas. His primary areas of research interests include the comparative philosophy of mysticism, religion in the social sciences, contemporary spirituality, religion and healing, and consciousness studies. For over 15 years, including his ongoing study of Portuguese, Professor Barnard has researched the Santo Daime tradition, a syncretistic, entheogenically-based new religious movement that emerged in Brazil in the mid-20th century. Professor Barnard is the author of Living Consciousness, the Metaphysical Vision of Henri Bergson, as well as Exploring Unseen Worlds, William James and the Philosophy of Mysticism. Professor Barnard has also written many journal articles and book chapters on a variety of topics, such as pedagogy and religious studies, the nature of religious experience, issues in the psychology of religion, and most recently, of course, entheogenic religions and spirituality. Just a brief word about the book. Liquid Light offers an in-depth immersion into the complex and fascinating world of the Santo Daime, a relatively new religion that emerged out of the Amazonian rainforest region of Brazil in the mid-20th century and which now has churches throughout the world. It's a religion based on the sacramental use of ayahuasca, a psychedelic brew. The Santo Daime is a, quote unquote, "hybridic" religion that weaves together folk, Catholicism, West African religion, the spiritist tradition, neo-esoteric modes of discourse, and Indigenous, or vegetalista practices and assumptions into its own utterly unique and inherently congruent tapestry of religious beliefs and rituals. In this text, Barnard draws upon decades of attempts to look deeply into the nature of mystical experience, consciousness, and other nonordinary experiences to better understand the underlying dynamics of the visionary and mystical experiences and mediumistic encounters he began to have while drinking the Daime-- that's the tradition's name for ayahuasca-- within, of course, the ritual context of the Santo Daime tradition. Now before I go ask Bill my first question, I need to tell a story. And I think Bill knows the story that's coming. It was about 10 years ago, and I was getting my baggage at the San Francisco airport and met there Bill Barnard and Jonathan Goldman. The three of us were driving south to the Esalen Institute for a conference on subtle bodies and esoteric anatomies. My first time. Bill was a veteran of conferences at Esalen. And I think it was Jonathan's first time, as well. And I confess, I'm so square, that was the first time I'd ever heard of ayahuasca or the Santo Daime tradition. I sat in the back seat for three hours and listened to Bill Barnard and Jonathan Goldman go deep into the weeds of the Santo Daime tradition and these amazing experiences afforded with the sacrament of ayahuasca. So that was my introduction to this tradition. And of course, to ayahuasca, which is used by a variety of different traditions beyond the Santo Daime. But it's wonderful to be able to welcome Dill back-- well, not back. To welcome Bill now here to Harvard to speak about this book. And it's been wonderful to hear so many of the names I heard in that back seat and I had no context for, to now hear or to read those names and hear those stories again, including, of course, the story of Jonathan Goldman. So Bill, it gives me great delight to have you here at the Center and to be part of this series on psychedelics. One last thing logistically, and then we'll get started. So here's how the evening will unfold. I'll spend basically the next 45 minutes or so asking Bill questions about the book and its implications. Then we'll open it up to Q&A from the audience. So Bill, shall we begin? Are you ready? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: I am very ready. I'm just delighted to be here. I can't begin to tell you how thrilled I am to be able to talk about the book, especially with you, Charles. CHARLES M. STANG: Bill, it's great to have you. And I want to commend you-- for those of you who are joining us who haven't read the book yet-- oh, my goodness. We have 124 people joining. So if you have not read this book, you have a real treat ahead of you. Not all academic books are fun to read. Bill has really written a very readable, very learned, but very approachable book. So on that alone, kudos to you, Bill. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Thank you so much. CHARLES M. STANG: Bill, so let's start with a very general question. I'm wondering if you could tell us how and why you came to write this book, and in particular at this time in your life and career, and how and why this book differs from your other books. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Sure. Sure. My first two books, as you mentioned, were much more sort of standard academic text about focusing on the teachings of two major philosophers of religion and of consciousness, William James and Henri Bergson. And I loved writing those books. Just it was a joy to immerse myself in their thought. But what happened with this book was that I, for my own personal spiritual reasons, got involved with the Santo Daime. I had no intention of writing a book about it. I just wanted to-- I had been hearing earlier, just because I'm a-- not just because, but because I'm a scholar of religion, especially anthropology of religion, I had known about the practice of drinking ayahuasca in different Indigenous and vegetalista context for quite a while. I was intrigued, but I wasn't really-- didn't really wish to join in because I realized that ayahuasca is a very powerful substance, mind-altering substance. And I just wasn't sure about the context in which it was being taken. I knew that it was very beautiful, in the sense of helping people to open up their spiritual awareness and being able to be more in touch with the spiritual underpinnings of nature. But I also knew that it was in that-- sort of in the more Indigenous context, it was also at times used for love spells and cursing and things like this. And so I was like, OK, that's-- I don't-- that's fine, but it's not going to be my spirituality. But when I heard-- I basically went on a retreat with my wife, who is a spiritual leader herself, spiritual teacher, and with her students. And there was a bookstore there, and I ran into this book that was called The Religion of Ayahuasca then, and now it's called-- what is it? I guess-- no. No, then it was called The Force of Visions, and now it's called The Religion of Ayahuasca. That's right. And it described the Santo Daime, my first experience of even hearing about the Santo Daime. And I said, oh, my gosh. Here's a tradition that really has, as the very heart of its intentionality, to bring light and love, divine light and love into this world and to help to transform the entire world, especially focusing each person on their own innate spiritual evolution. I said, well, now that's a use of ayahuasca and an intentionality about ayahuasca I can get behind. And so I had that long-- had a series, which I talk about in the book, of workshops, initial workshops, with Jonathan Goldman. Through a whole process, I reached out to him. And that was the whole thing about the synchronicity of that. But I finally-- at a certain point, it just became clear to me. I don't want grandiosity in any sort of sense of being called or whatever. But it just became a really clear, inner message that I should write a book on this. And so I decided to. And I really-- just like what you said, Charlie. I focused on trying to balance out different voices in the book. And in the book, I describe as in Portuguese called \[PORTUGUESE\], which means-- it literally means balancing the plates, but it has to do with juggling. So I was really trying to have the-- because I recognized I would have at least three audiences, three major audiences, right? One was scholars, and so that's a particular voice and level of rigor of writing. And the other was people who are just more generally interested in the spirituality of psychedelics and sort of educated audience. But then I'm also writing to daimistas, to people who are practicing this tradition. And so I wanted to write a book that would not only speak to all three of those audiences, but also be a respectful voice within those three audiences. CHARLES M. STANG: Well, as I said, kudos to you because you succeeded masterfully in doing so. And I'm really happy that you're part of this series because we've tried with this series to balance a similar set of plates. That is, to try to bring really rigorous scholarship to audiences that are interested but may not know of these books or may not be used to reading academic monographs. I think they'll all be pleasantly surprised by yours. Now, Bill, I'm going to resist the temptation to ask you about the timing of this in your career because in your-- I believe it's in the introduction, you speak about tenure and a sense of if academic tenure doesn't afford this kind of \[? venture, ?\] what does it-- what is it for, really? But if you feel called to speak to that in any of these responses, you can. But I wanted to ask you about your work on Bergson and James because you've written one book, essentially, on the metaphysics of Henri Bergson and another on the mysticism of William James. So you've made a reputation for yourself as someone deeply learned in the Western philosophical and religious tradition, philosophy and psychology of religion. And I'm curious, how did that previous work on Bergson and James on metaphysics and mysticism influence or inform your treatment of the Santo Daime tradition? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Yeah, no. It was integral to it and remains integral because diving into the work of these two, I mean, seriously brilliant thinkers has just changed my own perspective on who I am and what the world is. And so of course it was going to inform my research of the Santo Daime. But there are some very specific ways in which-- and I try to-- because I continually draw upon them in the book that I used or drew upon their perspective. And so I mean, just to give you one example. A large part of the book is looking at or trying to create a sophisticated understanding as I can of two different phenomena, the visionary medium-- I'm sorry, the visionary mystical experiences that are often catalyzed by drinking the Daime, drinking ayahuasca, and then the phenomenon of mediumship within the Santo Daime. I don't think I could have had anywhere near as a sophisticated framework for understanding or beginning to help me to understand these two phenomena if I hadn't have read and been immersed in the thought of William James and Henri Bergson. So for instance with William James, there is such an strong understanding of the sense that every moment of our lived experience is a fusion of what he calls knowledge by acquaintance and knowledge about. And knowledge by acquaintance, he's saying, is basically sensory experience or sensory-like experiences. So it's the immediacy of seeing that this is purple and that feeling the breeze on your face. But then when I'm holding this water bottle, I'm not just-- so that would be knowledge by acquaintance. We also, whenever we have any moment of experience, when I'm looking at this water bottle, I'm looking at a water bottle. I have a whole linguistic set of understandings of what a water bottle is, what color is, what-- the whole series of basically tacit subconscious understandings, a whole web, a framework of understandings that begin to take those sensory experiences and shape them and mold them into the specific, deeply personal experiences that I'm having-- the lived, concrete experience that I'm having right now. And so what that-- James would go on to apply this to visionary mystical experiences, that same sort of understanding. So that for me, when I'm having a visionary mystical experience within the Santo Daime, I'm wanting to-- it's not quite. I'm highly aware that experience has a sort of a concrete objectivity to it. It's not-- it's coming to me with a sense of I did not initiate that experience, in the same way that I didn't initiate purple. So if I'm having a visionary experience, like I talked about in the book, of, let's say, this gold and green dragon, and it's coming slithering in from the right-hand side of my inner sort of visionary experience, I didn't sort of like-- that's coming of its own accord. It has its own sort of objective reality to it. But at the same time, when I'm having that experience, I'm superimposing underneath the-- not consciously. I'm just underneath the awareness because I can't help it. All my understandings of dragons and all my experiences of that and the frameworks in which that emerge and all the symbolism of that for my training in cross-cultural mythology, et cetera, et cetera. And so from my experience, every visionary experience, every mystical experience is a fusion of these two components. So there is-- so it's always both/and. It's not like-- we're not just making it up. But at the same time, it's a participatory event, just like every moment of experiences. And so I think that's really important because sometimes people think that what they're experiencing when they're having these experiences with psychedelics is a purely objective event. And I don't think that's true. But at the same time, I don't think it's just made up, either. There's something that can push back, that can sort of confound our expectations, that can overturn our expectations. And James is one of the first people to talk about that, as well. And then I draw upon Bergson a lot, as well. We'll talk about mediumship within the Santo Daime, and I think that was where I really appreciated his perspective a lot because he and James talk about the sense of-- the way in which there can be overlapping consciousnesses. James refers to this as the compounding of consciousness. I'll go back to James, then I'll return to Bergson. But with James, he's saying that, for instance, right now in our experience right here and now, I'm seeing your image. And I'm hearing my own voice, and your voice as well if I'd stop talking quite so much. \[LAUGHS\] And et cetera, et cetera. And these are very qualitatively different and distinct qualities of experience. Hearing is very qualitatively different than sound. But in my lived experience, those two and any other senses are fusing together, and so they're coexisting, but they're interpenetrating. And that becomes sort of a metaphor for me for the phenomena of mediumship, which is when-- within the Santo Daime, at least, and I think more generally, too. Certainly as a scholar of anthropology of religion, I focus on this a lot. A medium can offer his or her, what they call in this tradition, the \[PORTUGUESE\], or the instrument, the body and mind, to let different disincarnate beings work in and through the medium. And so for me, when Bergson extends this sort of metaphor of the compounding of consciousness or understanding of the companion of consciousness. He uses the metaphor-- a musical metaphor. He talks about almost like a-- if he were-- and I talk about this in the book. So imagine a jazz band, where you have a saxophone and a guitar and drums and a bass. And they're all playing simultaneously. But they're very unique on one level but also coexistent at another level. And so within-- and I try to focus on this in the book within my own experience because I've had numerous mediumistic encounters with-- I'm not going to claim the whole issue of how I've \[? called ?\] in medium \[INAUDIBLE\]. This is a whole other issue, and I'm not going make any claims on that. But I've had numerous, and I've paid attention, right? And so within my own experience as a medium, it's fascinating to see that sense-- and maybe we can talk about a little more. But within the ritual context of a mediumistic encounter, I could, for instance, be experiencing the presence of the Christ or the Virgin mother on one hand, just holding and protecting the space, the energetic space, the inner space that I'm in. And then I could experience, let's say, another-- what, for instance, we call a suffering spirit coming into the \[PORTUGUESE\] in order to receive light and healing. And then I'm aware of my own individual consciousness, as well. And so you have this sense of there's three different consciousnesses-- to say nothing, and maybe that divine consciousness that's underpinning it all-- that are basically simultaneously present and distinct. And that's a mysterious, fascinating phenomena because-- we'll talk more about-- I would love-- I hope we'll talk more about it, this whole phenomenon of mediumship within Santo Daime. CHARLES M. STANG: I would, too. I want to apologize, Bill, there. I got kicked off by the fickle-- the fickle internet. But I'm here. I'm back again. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: I wondered what happened. CHARLES M. STANG: So apologies there. This is definitely the most interesting event we've had-- \[LAUGHS\] \[? technically. ?\] G. WILLIAM BERNARD: \[LAUGHING\] CHARLES M. STANG: Maybe it's those disincarnate beings. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: I know. You got to whip them into shape. Like, come on, guys. CHARLES M. STANG: That's your job. OK, so that's what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk a little bit-- I hope I didn't miss too much. I think I was only out for about 15 seconds. But when you first introduced the Santo Daime tradition, I think the thing that really stood out to me was the liturgical practice of mediumship, which, if I understood it correctly, in the context of a liturgy, of a sacramental-- of community sacrament, some but not all the members of the community act as mediums for disincarnate beings. So I'm wondering if you could say a little bit about what that looks like for those who aren't familiar with the practice. And also, what is the understanding of why you're ac-- why people are acting as medium? What work is being done, and what are the promises and pitfalls of that work of mediumship? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Very beautiful question. Thank you so much, Charlie. Yeah, just a few clarifications-- there are different types of what we call \[PORTUGUESE\], or "works," within the Santo Daime-- three major types. One is called a concentration work, which is much-- the whole focus is internal. It's deeply meditative. Then there's a work we call the \[PORTUGUESE\], or the "dance works," the \[PORTUGUESE\], that are where you sing and dance, often all night, the entire collection of hymns-- these received hymns, which I have not had a chance to talk about also, of a Santo Daime elder. And then you have a collect-- an assortment of different works that sort of all fall under the category of what we call healing works, which are works that are open to mediumship. And during these ritual or ceremonial events, there's an invitation or openness for disincarnate beings to come, within the ceremonial context. And there is a whole procedure, that has evolved over years, of how to work with these beings in a way that's hopefully effective, and compassionate, and clear. And so, again, there are so many different variations on this. But I focus, for instance, in the book on a work called the Mesa Branca. And the Mesa Branca is a work that begins-- and again, this is way-- a huge oversimplification. But more or less, there's a sense of in evoking what we call the spiritus de luz, the "spirits of the light." So the different hymns within the Santo Daime tradition carry different energies. They seem to come from-- and so in this case, there are certain hymns that are used to invoke the presences of different beings of light that we might call, like, San Miguel, or Saint Michael, or the spirit of the Christ, the spirit of the Virgin Mother, spirits of Native American Indigenous peoples. They're called \[PORTUGUESE\], the spirits of-- people who have died in slavery, called the \[PORTUGUESE\]. Some of those are more typically done within what they call an \[? \[PORTUGUESE\] ?\] Daime work. But this has that potential for those-- all these different beings to be invoked, because the whole notion is that you want to flood the \[PORTUGUESE\], the "sacred space," with light, with a sense of spiritual presence, and love, and compassion, and power, so that it's creating a very safe space. And so the reason that that's-- and sometimes that's enough, because that's a beautiful, cleansing healing. So, for instance, when the \[PORTUGUESE\] might come, there is a-- the \[PORTUGUESE\] are the spirits of the Native Americans-- they come with a very specific sort of high-energy movement. So when the people who are participating in the event that are acting as mediums, which is usually a smaller percentage-- usually the majority of the participants are not mediums. They are singing hymns, and they are staying present in their heart, and they're creating a space for the mediums to work, and to hold that space energetically. And so in-- let's say, the \[PORTUGUESE\] come. They're going to stir up the energy of the space, and cleanse it, and open it up. And they might be working with the subtle energies and blockages of the people that are participating and the collective energy within the \[PORTUGUESE\], within the space. But they can also be preparing the space for the arrival of-- in this work, at least, what they call the suffering spirits. And the spirits are understood to be spirits of human beings who have died, and who haven't passed on to the other realm, who have-- who are, for one way or another, sort of addicted to this world, usually. And usually they're suffering from addiction to violence, or alcohol, or drugs, or-- but they're suffering, right? And on some level-- and I think this comes from the spiritus tradition-- the feeling is that all spirits are longing for the light, even the spirits that are as contracted and dense as these spirits are. And so they want to evolve. And they're pulled towards this ceremony, which is basically like a beacon for them. And so you've got this room that's prepared, and then-- and everything is just ready. And the suffering spirits come into the \[PORTUGUESE\], the mind and body of the medium, within that tradition. There might be a lot of crying, or wailing, or expressions of anger, or whatever. And all that just is-- it's held compassionately, and very skillfully by the participants. Because there's often what we call guardians within these works, who really are typically so skilled about how to really, genuinely welcome these beings because the feeling is that within these ceremonial contexts, we are-- this is what's called "giving charity." It's a way to-- to me, it's very deeply similar to-- I talked about the practice of tonglen within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, of how to work with negative, dark energies, not by expelling them, but rather by transmuting them. And so for these beings, they're welcomed. And then with the presence, and the power, and the blessings, and the grace of these beings of light, they are shown tremendous unconditional love, and forgiveness, and mercy. And sometimes these beings will fight against that, and they'll resist it. But it's a sense of saying, you, too, are worthy of love, and grace, and forgiveness. And \[INAUDIBLE\] can be some of the most beautiful, heartwrenchingly poignant experiences I've had, because this happened within me when this is going on, right? To feel that being just-- finally just sort of opening up, and the wonder, and unimaginable joy of being released into this realm of light-- and welcomed into it with just such tenderness. And so the cool benefit of being a mediumship-- practicing mediumship in that context is that you get to receive that love and that forgiveness also, right? And I think also one of the interesting things about being a medium, in this sense, is that these suffering spirits, what-- they're attracted to on parts within the medium. There's a resonance. And so what's sort of cool is that you don't have to be this perfect being to be a medium, in fact. In some ways, it's like your own flaws become like a landing place, or an opening or a doorway for these spirits. It's so beautiful. Oh my God, it's so beautiful. CHARLES M. STANG: That's so interesting. That's so interesting. OK, well, I want to tack away a bit from the Santo Daime tradition for just a minute-- get back to it, don't worry. And I want to invite you to reflect on this cultural moment we're in right now, the so-called Psychedelic Renaissance. \[CHUCKLE\] So first of all, I think, pretty consistently throughout the book, you used-- you preferred the term "entheogen" and "entheogenic" to "psychedelic." But I can't recall. OK, so you're moving back forth. Could you tell us a little bit about how you feel about the category of psychedelic, and/or the work you're doing relative to the so-called Psychedelic Renaissance? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Sure, sure. Yeah, I-- actually, I made a conscious decision to actually, I think, believe it or not, Charles, I think I focused more on the word "psychedelic" than "entheogenic." CHARLES M. STANG: Do you? OK. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Because there's some part of me that wants to rehabilitate the term, right? Because as I'm sure you know, and probably most of the people participating this knows, it was coined by this man named Humphrey Osman in his correspondence with Aldous Huxley. And they were trying to sort of find an alternative to hallucinogenic, or hallucinogen, right? Which I think is just a horribly-- almost a useless term. And certainly, it's not a helpful term or an accurate term. And so they wanted to find an alternative to this. And so, you know, Humphry Osmond coined it as a way to sort of-- it means "mind manifesting." So it's a way to sort of-- that there are these deeper strata of the mind, these subconscious mind that begin to show themselves, which is something that often happens with psychedelic work. And so I usually use the term psychedelic because I want to say, yeah, that's part of, at least, what's going on. I usually talk about psychedelic spirituality, which to me, basically, is what entheogen, entheogenic is. And I just think it's more well-known than the word entheogenic, but I'm completely fine with both. I have no problem, actually, with the use of entheogen, at least certainly within my context, because that's clearly what's going on here. And so-- but-- CHARLES M. STANG: Can I respond to that real quick, Bill? And then you can tell us about the Renaissance. Actually, I find it very refreshing, because years ago when we decided to launch this series, I was reading around on the various camps and their commitment to different terms-- psychedelic, entheogen, plant medicine being the three that were the-- well, I was-- wasn't really considering hallucinogen \[CHUCKLE\] for the reason you state. But I'm glad to hear you say that because, of course, there are plenty of critics of psychedelic. And I chose-- we chose to land on the term psychedelics in the future of religion for much the reason you did. One, because it's-- for better or for worse, it is the currency in the contemporary conversation. It's what everybody knows. So in order to draw people in, we felt that it was necessary to use the term. But also like you, I feel like there's something-- I want to reclaim the term. And for me, reclaiming "soul"-- the original kind of sense of \[PORTUGUESE\] is "soul." Psyche is soul. And that brings me back, actually, to something you said earlier about psychedelic experiences sometimes being framed as objective, as not symbolic, or as not constructed. And I really appreciated what you said about James as a resource for thinking about psychedelic experience. In my own case, I've been drawn into the orbit of another Frenchman, another Henry, but Henry Corbin, in recent years. And I have found him enormously helpful in thinking about where soul drops out between mind and body in Platonic metaphysics and psychedelics as-- of course, Corbin, as far as I know, never was interested in psychedelics. But he was certainly interested in maintaining a space for that middle register, where entities that are real, but also imaginal, we encounter these real and yet imaginal beings-- beings that are independent of us, but also whose manifestation is filtered in and through our own psyche. So good on you for that explanation of psychedelics. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: \[LAUGHTER\] I'm just tickled. I didn't know, Charlie, you had that interest in Corbin. This is a total little side note, but I spent six months after I took my exams, and I was trying to plan my dissertation. I was planning to write my dissertation on Henry Corhin, his interest in mysticism. CHARLES M. STANG: Well, there's still time. You could write a second dissertation on Corbin. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: And so I'm deeply impressed with that man's work. And so it's a nice-- that's a nice little-- CHARLES M. STANG: That's a nice resonance. Yeah, we hosted a conference on Corbin about a little over a year and a half ago here at the Center. So I'm deeply committed to him. But now back to you-- so thank you for that. How do you see yourself relative to this, the wave of interest in psychedelics, the Psychedelic Renaissance? Do you feel like this wave is cresting, crashing, receding? And where are you and your surfboard in that \[? knowing? ?\] G. WILLIAM BARNARD: I mean, I would like to hope it's not-- it's just building. I would like-- it's certainly not receding. It seems to be gaining momentum in ways that I've been almost stunned by. I've been really thrilled at also the lack of media pushback. In fact, it seems that it's quite the reverse. It seems like a lot of appreciative media coverage of this phenomenon. Because I think that I personally am delighted that after 20 years of basically legal suppression, or certainly cultural suppression of research on these substances, there just-- there has been this upsurge of interest in psychedelics therapeutically, and clinically, and as topics for really creative, thoughtful research, right? One of the reasons I wrote this book, however, was because I think there's been much less discussion of the religious, conscious religious and-- use of psychedelics. So the use of psychedelics within a structured religious context. And I just wanted to give readers a sense of what that's like, and how it has a different-- there's some different implications and connotations that come with psychedelics when they're used explicit-- within explicit and overt religious contexts, instead of recreationally, or within a therapeutic context, et cetera, et cetera. Because, as we know, psychedelics, with it's all about set and setting-- the sense of the intentionality that you're coming to, why you're doing it. The set. And then the setting, meaning the context in which it's taking place, right? And so with-- I wanted to-- when you're doing taking psychedelics within an overtly religious context, that's a very specific set and setting. And it works very strongly to help to shape the experience. And so I just wanted to give people as vivid as I can a sense of what it's like to be immersed in a tradition that is overtly religious in nature, and how does that-- what are the implications of that. And I felt just so blessed that I've been studying alternate, or non-ordinary states of consciousness academically-- and to a certain extent, personally, spiritually for the last several decades, right? And so I wanted to be able to bring that perspective of a religious scholar, of a religious studies scholar, to this extremely fascinating, intriguing, sort of lived instantiation of what I've been studying academically for several decades, right? And so hopefully it'll engage people. And this is-- I'm not speaking as an advocate for Santo Daime, you know. I'm not really a spokesperson for the Santo Daime. I could never be that. It's too multifaceted. It's too-- literally, even organizationally, democratic. But I'm someone who's been intrigued by it, been studying it for, basically now, over 15 years, I'd say. And I'm delighted to be able to talk about the philosophical implications of this as well. CHARLES M. STANG: And naturally, you're preaching to the choir about that, Bill. All right, I have two more questions I'd like to ask you, and they're kind of related. And then I'm going to open it up for-- to the attendees. So those of you who have joined us, who didn't hear my message \[? here, ?\] if you have a question, please drop it into the Q&A function, which is at the bottom of your Zoom screen-- or at least it is on mine. And do let us know if you'd prefer that your question be anonymous, or if you want your name associated with your question. OK, so Bill, the question I have for you has to do with plants. So here at the CSWR, we have a very regular and robust reading group on the topic of plant consciousness. We actually also include fungi, but plant and fungi consciousness. We've been reading some really fascinating work all year on that topic. And some of the folks we've read are also thinking with and about the consciousness of ayahuasca or its constituents. And the question I have for you is, what do you say to those who argue that ayahuasca should only be ingested in places where it's native, that the plant kind of initiates you into a relationship with the particular flora of Amazonian, that it shouldn't be shared outside of that context, or that the person and the power of ayahuasca are changed when the sacrament is shared so far from its native soil, so to speak? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: No, that's a really profound and important question, right? Here's my take on it. I think that-- I am very aware, and I've heard arguments. And I tend to concur with them that ayahuasca-- and we're talking about ayahuasca here, scholarship it thinks that it was probably the vine, part of the ayahuasca brew, that it was understood to be sort of a master teacher that people within the shamanic cultures would use to learn about the spirits of other plants. And in some ways, I think that may be where the addition of the vine came into to create the brew that we normally think of as ayahuasca, is because the shamanic people were wanting to get to the spirits of these different plants via the spirit, the master's teacher, of the ayahuasca vine, right? And so that perspective of yeah, this is part of what ayahuasca does, seems incredibly important and valid to me. I wouldn't want to go so far though as to say that we could only-- should only take it within that native context. I feel very deeply grateful that-- at least that within the Santo Daime tradition, we don't believe that. And I'm grateful for that fact because I wouldn't have had the opportunity to drink ayahuasca otherwise. And my own experience with the spirit of ayahuasca is-- and I talked about this in the book. It's an intriguing question to me, is the-- I mean, the physical substance of the brew is basically identical, if you keep it to those two, the vine and the leaf that are typically understood to create. I mean, there are some traditions-- a lot of the \[INAUDIBLE\] just add other plants to it as well. But if you just take it that extent, it's like taking-- it's a real deep question to me, is the intentionality with how a brew is prepared, and the understanding that's been given. So within the Santo Daime, we have-- it's a very-- it's an understanding that the leaf carries the spirit of the divine feminine, and the vine carries the spirit of the divine masculine. And then when it's cooked-- and I have a whole description we call the \[PORTUGUESE\], the process of making the Daime. And so it's prepared with people who are drinking-- while they're drinking Daime, and communing with Daime that's already been made, they're preparing. They're singing these received hymns, these hymns that have been come from-- within this tradition, from the astral. And they're making it with extreme reverence, with the understanding that when these two energies combine, it creates this third thing, the Daime, which for us manifests the Christ consciousness. And the Christ consciousness is understood within this tradition as sort of the I am presence within, the sense of the divine presence that's manifested uniquely within each individual. And so is that-- does that preparation, does that intentionality energetically change-- is it-- I guess change that physical substance? Or does it carry a different being within? That I don't-- that's a fascinating question. I'm not quite sure about that. Are we just interpreting, giving different names to the different-- so when a more Indigenous tradition is dealing with the spirit of the plants that would go together to create, and they're receiving certain teachings from those plants in their mind, is that the same being as what we call \[NON-ENGLISH\], the spirit of the Christ within the Daime. I don't know. But for whatever reason, thank God, within our tradition, it's saying, no, this-- they have-- there's a hymn that Mestre Irineu, who is this man, the picture you see on the wall here, the almost seven-foot tall Black man who's the founder of the religious tradition. He has received many, many, many, many-- well over 100 hymns that are central to the liturgical work of the Santo Daime. And this, number 78 of that-- we call it \[PORTUGUESE\], the hymnal of his, he talks about that he'd been called a \[PORTUGUESE\], which means to give teachings to, and more importantly, give an energetic transmission to the entire world, right? And so there's a sense that in the Santo Daime. The Santo Daime is not a proselytization religion at all. In fact, it's anti-proselytization. We really feel it's not for everyone. This is something that you feel should deeply called to, right? But at the same time, there's a sense of we want to share this with anyone and everyone who feels the call to-- for that level of spiritual transformation, that profundity of spiritual work, right? And I don't know. Of course, in terms of answering whether the experience changes, of course it does. To me, every experience of drinking the Daime is utterly-- not utterly different, but significantly different, and can be very different-- very modified by, again, the set and setting. So when I took my-- when I drank Daime for a long time within the Amazon rainforest, of course it was powerful and beautiful. But I have had equally powerful and beautiful, albeit slightly different perhaps-- well, again, they're all different levels of risk-- outside of the Amazon rainforest. So I wouldn't-- just, I disagree with that \[INAUDIBLE\]. CHARLES M. STANG: OK. Well, that's what I was hoping to surface. \[CHUCKLE\] Thank you, Bill. All right, I think I'm going-- in some way, you, in your answer to my last question, you anticipated my final question. So I don't feel like I need to ask it. And in light of the time, I want to move to the questions that are coming in from the audience. So this is an anonymous question. I'm going to read it out. The question is-- first, a comment. Especially early in your engrossing book, you often express discomfort with certain aspects of Santo Daime which you find problematic, i.e., or e.g., its being rather authoritarian, hierarchical, patriarchal, with a relentless military-like enforcement of ritual practices, along with required uniforms. In other words, it sounds like a cult, albeit one with a powerful and effective sacrament. In the end, you seem to resolve the matter-- maybe I'm oversimplifying here-- by suggesting that the profound spiritual experiences involved in the ritual make those problematic areas tolerable, excusable, even understandable. Please set me straight if I've misread you. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: \[LAUGHING\] I love that. Yeah, I mean, in the book, I really want to be really honest with people about my own process with my immersion. Because-- in this tradition, because it's not an easy tradition to get immersed in. And I came from an Eastern-- more Eastern background. I was very much the quintessential spiritual, but not religious person. I wanted nothing to do with religion, period. Zero. And yet, I was intrigued by this. And so I want people to recognize that we're lived human beings, and there were-- and to some extent, continue to be aspects of the Santo Daime tradition that I had to struggle with, and that didn't come easy for me. But the way the question was phrased, it makes it feel like that it's militaristic, \[? authoritarian, ?\] and \[? patriarchal. ?\] I don't know. I mean, it has some of these tinges to it. It depends on what you're open to, what you're willing to accept, right? And for whatever reason, I was called to this tradition that-- Mestre Irineu was in the military police for a long time. And so he deeply valued discipline, and he valued order and structure. And I find that, over the years, I've begun to appreciate that more and more. Because there's something about-- the Santo Daime raises up such-- it's such a powerful catalyst for internal shifts in conversation and transmutations within us energetically that it's-- feels sort of comforting to have an external ritual structure that's so thoughtful and carefully structured. Now, Santo-- daimistas are human beings. And so sometimes they get a little too-- a little militaristic, and whatever. And to me, though, that's part of-- in essence, sort of-- and I write about this in the book. When you're in any religious tradition, regardless of-- if it's a religion, you don't get to sort of say, well, I don't like this about it, I don't like this. But it's like, you've got to work within what you're given. And that is, I think, ultimately really good for your ego, if you can do it carefully and thoughtfully, right? And so I have begun to really value-- and the communal aspect of the tradition, I adore. I adore the sense that it pushes me, and challenges me to go beyond the limits that I would have as a spiritual, but not religious person, right? And I like the fact that I get to talk back to the tradition, and-- through this book. I'm in a lived conversation with a tradition that isn't-- it isn't doctrinaire. There is a very low sense of-- no one's going to tell you what you have to believe within the Santo Daime. But they are going to tell you where to sit. \[LAUGHTER\] CHARLES M. STANG: There are worse things than being told where to sit. Well, the question-- your mention of community is a good segue to this next question, which is posed by Karen Harris. So again, I'll read Karen's question out loud. As someone who has deep experience with the Santo Daime, Siddha Yoga, and Harvard, I'm struck by the very different cultures in these communities with respect to the public sharing of personal religious experience. In Siddha Yoga, there is a strong encouragement to share one's spiritual experiences in public programs and ashram publications. The sharing of experiences plays a powerful role in the culture, aiding all participants in the tradition. In the Santo Daime, there is much more caution around speaking about what is received in the works, other than in the form of received hymns. In a culture that's deeply community-oriented, one rarely hears the experiences of others. With your deep immersion in these two very different cultures, could you speak about the value, purpose, and advisability of sharing personal mystical experiences? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Thank you so much, Karen. What a thoughtful question. And I actually do write about this in the book as well. I have a whole discussion about this because, as Karen mentions, my first-- my root spiritual tradition was Siddha Yoga, which was brought to the West by Swami Muktananda in the '70s-- actually, first in the '60s. And she's right. There was a lot of emphasis on sharing experiences within that culture, and I was very used to that. And she's also very correct that within the Santa Daime, there's a lot of care given about saying you want to basically keep these experiences to yourself, to keep-- feel the sacredness of them, right? But there are certain contexts within the Santo Daime tradition, especially when elders come to town and they do it. They'll do works of-- some elders began to have a practice of having a sort of a Q&A sharing session that was going on. And certainly Jonathan Goldman did this within the initial works that I was doing. And I found that very, very helpful, and very illuminative because, one, to see how these different elders would work with people, and begin to say, oh yeah, I have not understanding, but maybe I should shift it and be able to share my own concerns, and my own-- like, what just happened here? Can you give me some insight into it, and things like this. I found that very helpful also. But there is a sense that you want to be careful, because there can-- you want to, I think, always be on the lookout for a sense of grandiosity. Because I think that's one of the major pitfalls with any psychedelic substance, is that you can have such profound experiences that it can puff you up, puff your ego up, and you feel like you're the chosen one and what have. And so there can be a sense of using sharing these experiences to subtly puff up your ego, I think. And I think that's one-- that's a potential pitfall. And I think that's why there's a caution within the Santo Daime to not do that. But I think daimistas, informally, with close friends that they trust, talk about their experiences a lot. That's been my experience. And I think that's extremely valuable, because then you begin to have counsel with people you trust and value, and that you begin to have others that can mirror back to you, maybe-- well, maybe you want to think about it a little differently. Or, well, how about this? And well, yeah, I experienced this, too, and I see what you're saying. And you can begin to share insights into the whole process. And so I do find it valuable, if it's done carefully and thoughtfully. And I thought part of my calling, if you will-- and I'll put quote marks around it, just simply because of the humbleness. I don't-- what-- who knows about any of this sort of stuff. But I definitely-- one of the reasons I wanted to write this book was to extend and deepen that conversation. And so it felt really important for me, in my book, to share-- to share, with as much clarity and depth as I could, the sort of different experiences I've had, so that people can have a sense of the range of the types of-- and a sort of vicarious insight to the types of experiences that are possible within the Santo Daime, more specifically, in ayahuasca \[? for ?\] immersion. CHARLES M. STANG: OK. Yeah, that reminds me, Bill, of something Mike Murphy, co-founder of Esalen, speaks about in The Future of the Body, these communities of discernment that hold and sift extraordinary experiences, which in some traditions are held by monasteries. And in others, by just sort of master-disciple relationships. But I just want to underscore what you said, that how-- whatever form it takes, some kind of community of sharing and discerning these extraordinary experiences seems crucial, whether that's formal or informal. So we have brilliant questions and comments coming in. So again, forgive me. For those of you who are putting up, I'm not going to be able to get to all of them. I'm going to opt for a shorter one here, Bill, to give you a little palate cleanser. This is from Richard Saville Smith, who says, thank you so much, Bill. That was fabulous. It's my understanding that the dominant intention of Westerners traveling to Latin America to take ayahuasca is about healing. Do you think healing can operate without a recognition of a religious context? Now, let me graft another question onto that one very briefly-- sorry. Because we've been speaking-- your subtitle is used as spirituality, although earlier, you were speaking about religion. And then we have another question on the table, which is about, does this have to do with religion or spirituality? Which, of course, implicit in that is, what do we mean by these two terms? So I just want to go back to Richard's question, which is about can healing operate without a religious context, but also invite you to say what you intend to mean by the terms religion and spirituality. Or are you using them synonymously? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Oh, sure. No, thank you so much. First, I want to just say what a joy it is to be able to engage in this discourse, and to be able to sort of-- because these are such thoughtful questions, and I just love being able to just think with people as-- and engage with this. First, I just wanted to say that. I just feel it so strong. And yeah, so, of course healing can happen without a religious context. I mean, I think there's just-- it's unequivocal that we have a sense of just so much research and evidence that profound levels of healing can happen to people that are strong atheists, you know? There's something inherent in the work with psychedelics that carries with it just the capacity to heal on the deepest levels, psychologically, and even physically often. I mean, certain-- my god, the work of working with ayahuasca, the most important things that I've seen is it's worked with addiction. I mean, I have known numerous, numerous, very strongly-- people who have just had enormous problems with alcohol and opioids that have started working with the Daime, and have just become shining exemplars of humanity. And it's-- of course, it's messy in the sense that humans are humans. But a lot of these people, they could care less about anything religious or spiritual, right? They're at the bottom of the barrel. They just wanted help. They needed help. And so that level of healing, I think, is absolutely almost at times miraculous. And I will personally, though, almost always interpret those healings religiously and spiritually. That's because, to me, the spirit of the Daime, like I said, is the-- contains within it the spirit of the Christ. And I don't mean this as-- to me-- I mean, I mean this as-- what I mean by that is that it contains the energy of a supremely powerful, and beautiful, and utterly loving, and deeply wise divine being who is coming into this world of darkness, and suffering, and contraction to transmute and transform those contracted energies. And to free them up, and to awaken everyone, right? And I've had these just profoundly powerful experiences of that being. And so to me, it's like I can't-- I just know that that being is operating in and through this, but it doesn't mean necessarily any belief-- overt religious beliefs, or overt religious contexts, right? And so what I mean, to me-- and again, this is so-- as a professor of religious studies, we often just spend hours talking about the whole \[? notion ?\] of what religion is. And there's all these different theories, and stuff on this. But just is a sort of rule of thumb, when I'm talking about Santo Daime as a religion, I'm talking about a religious-- a social structure that is communal, that has a basic set of beliefs of-- and a ritual context in which to enact those assumptions, and to deepen them. And so this is somewhat similar to what I was talking about earlier, that when you're in a religion, it's-- it has a tradition to it. There is a sense of assumptions and expectations that you work within. And it's communal, and it has a history, right? Whereas, to me, spirituality has much more to do-- and I still consider myself deeply spiritual, which means that I think that it has to do with a lived, felt connection to that underlying spiritual level, or metaphysical level of reality that, to me, is what is referred to often by the terms God, or the goddess, or the absolute, or however you want to call that. But there is some transpersonal underlying sense of absolute. And being spiritual means you have a connection to that, and you're wanting to work to deepen that connection in your life. That's just my rough, off-hand, off the top of my head, just blah-blah-blah sort of way of describing this to you. CHARLES M. STANG: OK. Thank you, Bill. All right, this is a question from a name known to me, a HDS student here by the name of Jackson Washburn. So thank you, Jackson. Jackson asks this. Bill, would you say that practitioner-scholars or, quote unquote, "religious insiders," are uniquely positioned to understand study, and explain entheogenic spiritual traditions like Santo Dame, compared to holy external observers? Can those who refrain from partaking of the Daime themselves even grasp the essential-- the essence of the tradition in any meaningful, personal, or academic sense? The old emic-etic. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: I know, right? \[INTERPOSING VOICES\] CHARLES M. STANG: --outside. Bill, take it away. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: All right. Oh, my god, I love graduate student questions. It's like, these are the best, right? And yeah, I mean, I actually-- I talked about this in the introduction, because it is a real question. I do think that some valid and important work could be done, let's say, on the Santo Daime by someone who was a complete outsider in terms of just studying the external-- the-- I don't know, what does a ritual look like? And could bring some insights into the politics, and the economics, and all these sorts of things. But it's-- I think you would be missing out on the real important essence of what the Santo Daime is, if you've never had any of those experiences. And I'm part of this group called the Ayahuasca Researchers \[? LISTSERV. ?\] And I would say-- and this is just rough hand, but I would say the vast majority of the people that are strongly academic researchers of ayahuasca have drank ayahuasca quite often themselves. But many of them are unwilling to own that publicly and claim that, because they think it would challenge their, or threaten their sense of objectivity-- or authority, perhaps. I'm not sure. And so, many of the articles and things that are written academically about ayahuasca, It can appear like this person's never drank this. But I happen to know, typically, for many of them, they have, but that there's such a strong sense of the academic protocol, and what you say and don't, and the sort of reluctance, at times, to engage in first-person discourse around these things. And so I consciously chose otherwise, in this book, to just basically be very self-reflexive and transparent about my participation. But with the sense that-- hopefully with the sense, though, that I'm also operating as a religious studies scholar. And the two don't-- being a participant and being a scholar don't interfere with each other, but rather they deepen, and hopefully allow me to look for more angles at the tradition, and express what I think is the real, magical beating heart of the Santo Daime experience as well as I can. So hoping that's coming close to answering that question. CHARLES M. STANG: Well, you've been doing great, Bill. All right, a few more. It's been a long day for me, and maybe for you, too, Bill. So we don't necessarily need to go all the way to the hour, but-- G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Oh, please! Please! Come on, let's do it. CHARLES M. STANG: Let's do it until the very end. All right. This is a question from someone joining us from London, Chad Fallberg. And Chad says, Bill, can you share your thoughts on the cumulative effects of ayahuasca on an individual through consistent centered Santo Daime practice? Do you have any recommendations to individuals that are early in their practice? That's Chad's question. I suppose I will tag on to that, but I don't want to impute this to Chad. But are there worries about-- well, I know there are worries in the Santo Daime tradition, maybe you could speak to these-- about people seeking out too many experiences? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Yeah. CHARLES M. STANG: That kind of experience-hungry aspect of it? Now, again, that's not Chad's. Chad just wanted to know if it has cumulative effects. But I take it you know of what I speak, and could you-- G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Yeah, sure. CHARLES M. STANG: --could you speak to that, too, Bill? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Sure, sure. I'm just saying it's \[INAUDIBLE\]. OK, hey, Chad. Again-- god, I'm loving these questions. Cumulative effects, I think that really varies from person to person, and that's one of the mysteries. Again, this is a highly participatory event. And so it's really fascinating to me. I write about this in the book, that, for one, how do we know what is causing different changes within us, right? So how do we know that the changes we're seeing are only the result of drinking Daime? And maybe they're the result of lots of therapeutic work you're doing, maybe result of body work, of dance, of yoga, of meditation, what have you, right? And so it's-- because I write in the book about the whole question of how do you-- and here's how I draw upon James also. He has three criteria for how to assess the value and/or-- because he's a pragmatist-- the truth of a mystical vision or experience, right? And he says, well, it's immediate luminosity, which means the felt experiential power of the experience itself. There is philosophical reasonableness, which means does it present a coherent explanatory system that can make sense of these experiences, and that can illuminate them, right? And then there's what he calls moral helpfulness. That's Victorian prose for basically-- and he refines and says, does engagement-- does this experience, on the whole and over the long run, make the person or the community better, right? And that last thing becomes a whole big issue-- a huge issue, to me, that's really complicated. And so, of course I think that people can, and certainly have a strong assistance to just transform themselves on the deepest levels of their being by engaging in this tradition. I mean, and we could begin to talk about that to some extent. But I have seen, certainly within my own life, and certainly in the life of many people that I love, an increased capacity, one, to create what they call in the tradition firmness, or the Portuguese, \[PORTUGUESE\]. And what that means is the ability to be grounded, to be present, to be in your heart in the middle of the influx of what we call the force, the divine, transformative power of-- that you strongly can feel within these rituals. And that \[PORTUGUESE\] is-- carries out into our daily life, right? So in the turbulence of just daily life, can we begin to, more and more, stay in our hearts? Can we be clear? And one thing that I've also felt, though, with ongoing practice of Santo Daime, the cumulative effects for many people is an increased sensitivity to the energetic underpinnings of what's going on around within themselves, but also the sort of interconnection of energies, that you begin to be much more sensitive to that. And that is a good thing, but it can be-- it's a learning process. Because as you open up-- a lot of us are-- we've developed sort of energetic shields to that interpenetration. We've sort of almost said we'd prefer to be billiard balls rather than open to these energies-- you know, sort of like, bounce, let them bounce off-- usually out of fear. And so what happens when you're drinking ayahuasca is you begin to feel that interconnection of life much, much more deeply, and experientially, and viscerally. And so it takes a while to learn how to integrate all of that, and to stay centered, and grounded, and while feeling it all so strongly, right? And yet, that feeling allows you to feel compassion, and to feel-- and to really, I think, get a more clear and accurate-- spiritually accurate-- sense of the interconnection of life, right? And so I think that's something that happens a lot. And just openness of heart, I think, can often happen. And ideally, clarity of mind, which, to me, all comes with that \[PORTUGUESE\]. But each person is their own being, and some people are-- they can drink gallons of ayahuasca, and still be assholes. And that's been an incredible mystery to me. CHARLES M. STANG: Yeah. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: And there are sorcerers that drink ayahuasca, right, and curse people. How all that's possible is unimaginable to me. And so, I think it's part of us being free spiritual beings, and we can choose how we're going to use this energy that comes from the Daime or ayahuasca. We \[INAUDIBLE\]. And so, OK, responding more to your question, Charles, about that sort of addiction to experience. I do write about that, too. In fact, I have a whole subchapter called More is Not Always Better, which I think is a crucially important issue to address within-- sort of within Santo Daime, but I think also just within any ayahuasca group period. Or, I mean, I don't want to claim I have in-depth knowledge of all of this, but just with any-- goes back to what Trungpa and Rinpoche would talk about, spiritual materialism, that sense that-- a sense of self-examination about, why are we doing this? Are we doing it to fill a void, right? And so the sense that we have to keep filling the void with something external, right? There are people that can sort have-- that they want that hit, begin to crave that hit of that opening, right? Though I have to I want to balance this out by saying there is nothing addictive at all, to my mind, about the Santo Daime. In fact, it's anti-addictive. It's a miracle anyone ever drinks it more than once. It's really tough. It's very challenging. And so I don't want to-- but so, I'm talking something very subtle, right? A sense that, somehow, we're not complete unless we're in these sort of more expanded states of consciousness. And so I just think that it's something that maybe at plays at times, but I think there is something inherent about doing this work that will address that issue. And I felt it was important enough to talk about explicitly specifically in the book. But I think there's also the-- the Daime itself is an incredibly profound teacher. It can really help you gain tremendous insight into these ego issues-- egoic issues, right? And so I do think that there's a-- and daimistas can help with that process, too. Like hey, it's not-- it's carrying this into your daily life. That really matters, right? And it's not just about doing-- sometimes we need a lot of time to integrate these experiences, and to really reflect on them. And every person has their own pacing and timing. And I've seen, really beautifully, how elders, at times, will sort of crack the whip, and encourage discipline, encourage people to go beyond their limits. But at other times, they're like, hey, slow down. This isn't a marathon. This isn't a sprint. You need to just-- et cetera, et cetera, right? So there's a sense of almost like the timing of it. And the individuality of each person's process, I think, is really important. CHARLES M. STANG: Thank you, Bill. Those were such clear, and compelling, and also heartfelt answers to these great questions. And I want to also Thank everyone who attended, and posed such interesting and insightful questions. Bill, maybe just a last parting question. Obviously, people will want to pick up your book and read that. Are there other books, or other scholars whom you'd like to recommend-- either on the Santo Daime tradition, or more generally on psychedelic spirituality? G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Oh wow, OK. Yeah. First, before I forget, I have a little plug that anyone that reads the book will know I've also created a companion website for the book that's under-- it's [www.liquidlightbook.com](http://www.liquidlightbook.com). And that's a really good resource for people to-- who want-- in there, I include something like, I call it Psychedelics 101, Santo Daime 101. I have a whole series of different chapters that didn't make it in the book. But also, I wrote an extremely long, over 130-page biography of the founder of the religion, Mestre Irineu, for people who want to go more deeply into the historical background of the tradition, which I thought the book was initially going to contain. But it just-- the book kept growing. And so the editor and I had to make some hard choices. And I think it's better for it to be on the website, because it can then-- it can continue to grow, too. And then I also have a collection of the hymns that I've received, which is-- that's a whole other thing. I wish we'd had the time to talk about the hymns and stuff. But receiving hymns is such a mysterious and beautiful process. And I'm not claiming that my hymns are at all even-- they're not really even like the standard Santo Daime hymns, in certain ways. But at least people can get a sense of the more sonic aspects of the tradition, or at least my \[INAUDIBLE\]. OK. In terms of scholars that I value, I've been sitting here looking at my bookcase. I just want to put a plug in for this one-- if you don't read Portuguese, it's not going to help. But I just want to just acknowledge the incredible research that's been done by \[? Edward ?\] \[? McCray, ?\] and his student-- what is it-- \[? Paolo ?\] \[? Moreya, ?\] who wrote this book called \[PORTUGUESE\], which is a phrase from one of Mestre Irineu's hymns, I Come from Far Away. And it's about-- it's incredible. It's the biography of Mestre Irineu, the founder of the tradition. So I just want to give a shout out to that. But in English, some of the people that I have enjoyed by far the most, just certainly recently, Marc Blainey has written this amazing book called Christ Returns From the Jungle. That's a beautiful ethnography and an anthropological analysis of the Santo Daime in Europe. And it includes all these amazing experiences that people have had, and an analysis of it, and it's very, very thoughtful. And so I just wanted to definitely give him a plug. And then I have-- love the work of Chris Bache, who his most recent book is LSD and the Mind of the Universe, where it's a very courageous description of-- I think it's well over 70 high-dose LSD sessions that he did explicitly to explore into the depths of the cosmos. And he's a philosopher of religion. And I just feel like he is giving very, very thoughtful, detailed, profoundly metaphysical questions about using, about-- whether keen, sort of self-reflexive awareness of the problems and potentials of using psychedelics as a way to explore the nature of reality. And I just find it just really clear and thoughtful. So those two right off the bat. I mean, there's so many more. My gosh. And I keep referring to them throughout the book. I mean, I'm also deeply appreciative of Sacred Knowledge, Bill Richard's work. I think I wrote the foreword for that. And I had \[? initially ?\] said it was-- because there's foreword or the preface. I definitely wrote one of those. And he's just an amazing, thoughtful person with a deep background in religious studies as well who is one of the elders of the psychedelic tradition. And I think it's just really thoughtful. And of course, I also think that-- thank God for Michael Pollan's book, and his work, and the whole Netflix series on How to Change Your Mind. I think that's opened up the discussion in such a beautiful way to the broader public, and sort of helped it legitimize and ground the study of psychedelics. And where people can begin to let go of their fear, and all of the paranoia that was created in the '60s by, often, just flat-out government and media propaganda. CHARLES M. STANG: Wonderful, thank you. I didn't know about all of those books, Bill, so I'm especially happy to hear that. And I'm always looking for suggestions, so I'm very appreciative. Our time is up, and so I want to thank you so much, Bill. This has been such fun-- rich presentation, conversation. It's such an important book you've written. So thank you deeply. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Thanks for the opportunity. It was a delight. Absolute delight. CHARLES M. STANG: So for those of you who are still with us, please be on the lookout for future events this semester and next, many of which we will continue to offer, like this, as Zoom webinars. And please do sign up for our newsletter if you're interested in the kind of programming we do here at the Center in-person, if you happen to live in Cambridge, or online, wherever you may be. We're delighted to continue our online programming, because we reach just such a broader audience than we could ever hope to entice to this corner of Cambridge. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: Thank you so much for doing this work, Charlie. The Center for the Study of World Religions is doing such profound and important \[? work. ?\] And so I just want to really thank you for that. CHARLES M. STANG: Thank you, Bill. That means a great deal from you. And it's glad to know that it's reaching you and other people around the country, around the world. So with that, I will say thank you again, everyone. And goodnight, and see you next time. Bill, until we meet again, thank you, brother. Wonderful work. G. WILLIAM BARNARD: \[LAUGHTER\] CHARLES M. STANG: Take care, everyone. Good night. ANNOUNCER 1: Sponsor, Center for the Study of World Religions. ANNOUNCER 2: Copyright 2023, The President and Fellows of Harvard College. See also:- [ CSWR ](/media-topic/cswr) - [ Indigenous people ](/topic-tags/indigenous-people) - [ psychedelics ](/topic-tags/psychedelics) - [ Video ](/news-classification/video) - [ Transcendence and Transformation ](/programming-threads/transcendence-and-transformation) - [ Psychedelics and the Future of Religion ](/programming-threads/psychedelics-and-future-religion)